Player Topic: Vincent Kompany (2015/16)

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The thing with stats is that they don't account for Otamendi completely missing a vital tackle vs Sevilla or diving rather than challenging Mandzukic properly the other night.

He's been ok so far; exceptional in the derby, but shoddy in a few other games, the worst of them being the other night.

Another key thing to consider in the Kompany-Otamendi argument is that Otamendi's best performances have come with Kompany next to him; the reality is Kompany's presence has a huge impact on our defensive form.

I like Otamendi a lot, but VK is on another level.
 
The thing with stats is that they don't account for Otamendi completely missing a vital tackle vs Sevilla or diving rather than challenging Mandzukic properly the other night.

He's been ok so far; exceptional in the derby, but shoddy in a few other games, the worst of them being the other night.

Another key thing to consider in the Kompany-Otamendi argument is that Otamendi's best performances have come with Kompany next to him; the reality is Kompany's presence has a huge impact on our defensive form.

I like Otamendi a lot, but VK is on another level.
Actually there are stays that show missed tackles. And even if there weren't, they'd equally not show both Kompany's and Otamendi's. So as far as relevancy goes. That's fishing for unseen stats. We also don't have stats for when Kompany has missed a tackle and Otamendi cleaned up quickly before it became a danger or vis versa. But looking at how often they make tackles a game, its an easy guess who is most likely cleaning up who's mess with a tackle.
And as far as defensive errors go, Ota being bullied and spun/fouled doesn't rank that high in the bad error list. He got beat to a ball. I have seen that happen to all our defenders often this season. Komps included. Sometimes others players help out, the attacker fluffs the chance or Joe saves it. This just happened to result in a goal.

And the fact that Ota plays better next to Komp, isn't proof Komps is better than Ota, just that he is probably better than the backups as he should be. Ota often plays better when they play together.
 
I've not checked any OPTA stats, so am just going off what I've seen with my own two eyes. If that makes my view in some way not "legitimate" to you then so be it.
You should watch more on TV, its quite clear then, apparantly.

Going off my own eyes too, I'll side with your argument Ric, oh, and that small stat of "goals conceded", which is quite an important one.

Otamendi might turn out to be a City great, like Kompany, but he's quite a way off it right now, quite a way.
 
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For me a lot of what you remember & thus what influences your opinion is not these stats, but things like goal saving tackles & mistakes. This season I've seen more of both from Otamendi, but significantly more mistakes that won't be shown on stats (e.g. wild swing & miss at the ball under no pressure against Spurs was it?).

For me Otamendi is a very front footed defender, loves running into a tackle & going for the ball - this probably aids his stats in terms of tackles, interceptions etc. but these stats don't show if he's then out of position or if his partner covers for him etc. Then there are factors like holding a line, leadership, communication.. Those don't provide statistics either.

Stats have their usefulness no doubt but an argument like this cannot purely be based off of stats IMO.

My vote goes to VK for a consistency reason, he's been great every game he's played, conceded very few, scored a few & been a proper leader. Otamendi has had some cracking games, and a couple of poor games. I very much like Otamendi & think he's a great asset but VK has been fantastic this season when fit. Like others have said every CB has looked better when partnered with VK & there's more than likely a reason for that.

Personally don't give a crap whose been "better" anyway, so long as they both keep playing well & hopefully form a solid partnership then I'm more than happy.
 
Sure is. But do you have a basis for your claim outside of correcting my grammar?
Re your use of the word "math" - guilty as fuck; re Vincent being so much better than "competent" - the evidence of my own eyes, but ultimately it's about opinions, and I reckon yours is very wrong, on this particular subject
 
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Re your use of the word "math" - guilty as fuck; re Vincent being so much better than "competent" - the evidence of my own eyes, but ultimately it's about opinions, and I reckon yours is very wrong, on this particular subject
Btw I didn't want to get off topic, hence why I side stepped your swipe and try to get back to the point at issue. But now that it seems everyone has had their say, let's get back to the irrelevant.

Contrary to your belief 'Math' is a correct abbreviation of mathematics. Mathematics is a mass noun that happens to ends with the letter ''s", this doesn't mean it's abbreviation has to. Math and maths are equally acceptable abbreviations. The choice one makes simply hints at where they live. Clearly you live in the UK or Australia, while I live in the States. It's no surprise I used Math while you would have used Maths.

As for the subject, I'm certain I'm not wrong - certainly not on the evidence so far.
 
What stats would you like for a fuller picture? And yes, Otamendi does have more blocks than Kompany.
Accusing me of cherry picking stats is laughable. I looked at tackles, Interceptions, clearances, headers, blocks, pass completions, goals scored. I mean that is pretty much every statistically significant defensive stat. So what exactly was cherry picked? Again, I'd ask, what defensive statistic did I miss out on that you think was key?

Let's be clear here, I'm not trying to change your mind on who's better. That's silly, as most people are entrenched in their beliefs, myself included. But I state my claims to show its not irrational to think Otamendi is better. There are enough indices in that direction already.

1. If you are going to base your case on stats, then you need to quote all relevant stats. Especially as we know that missed tackles by Otamendi have led directly to goals. For some reason you omit that important stat.

2. If you are going to base your case on stats, those stats need to be correct. You are wrong on blocks - I pointed that out before, but you conveniently ignored it. If there's one thing worse than cherry-picking it's basing your case on wrong info.

3. You may want to google "statistically significant". It doesn't matter whether it's this season, last season or any other. If you base a conclusion on 7 data points, the standard error of that conclusion will be very high. Translated - more randomness in that than real information.

4. Rather than quoting incorrect, incomplete, statistically insignificant figures, you would do better to watch the game and understand the galvanizing and calming influence Kompany has had on the whole team this season.
 
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Btw I didn't want to get off topic, hence why I side stepped your swipe and try to get back to the point at issue. But now that it seems everyone has had their say, let's get back to the irrelevant.

Contrary to your belief 'Math' is a correct abbreviation of mathematics. Mathematics is a mass noun that happens to ends with the letter ''s", this doesn't mean it's abbreviation has to. Math and maths are equally acceptable abbreviations. The choice one makes simply hints at where they live. Clearly you live in the UK or Australia, while I live in the States. It's no surprise I used Math while you would have used Maths.

As for the subject, I'm certain I'm not wrong - certainly not on the evidence so far.

Living in the US means you speak American. Not to be confused with English spoken in England where the language was invented.

Just curious, when did you start following Man City and why?
 
1. If you are going to base your case on stats, then you need to quote all relevant stats. Especially as we know that missed tackles by Otamendi have led directly to goals. For some reason you omit that important stat.

2. If you are going to base your case on stats, those stats need to be correct. You are wrong on blocks - I pointed that out before, but you conveniently ignored it. If there's one thing worse than cherry-picking it's basing your case on wrong info.

3. You may want to google "statistically significant". It doesn't matter whether it's this season, last season or any other. If you base a conclusion on 7 data points, the standard error of that conclusion will be very high. Translated - more randomness in that than real information.

4. Rather than quoting incorrect, incomplete, statistically insignificant figures, you would do better to watch the game and understand the galvanizing and calming influence Kompany has had on the whole team this season.
I will address each point.


1. My case like yours is based on my eyes. The stats just happen to also back up my claim. But as far as relevant stats are concerned, I did not conveniently ignore any set off stats, but rather I listed all the basic ones that are not random and are easily documented and they mostly point in Otamendi's favor. Not cherry picked as you claimed, I listed all of the main ones. The missed tackles leading to a goal, can be countered by missed tackles saved by other player, both are hard to quantify, but by and large your ability to save another players missed tackle will often involve you making the next tackle. Seeing how infrequently Komps makes any tackle, it's quite clear who is more likely to be making goal bound stopping tackles. So no, I can't produce your limited 'goal causing missed tackle', but I'll give you their individual numbers.

Komp has attempted a total of 10 tackles in 720 minutes of football. He won 7 tackles, and has been beat 3 times. 70% success rate
Otamendi has been has had a total of 31 tackles in 63 minutes of football. He won 23 tackles and has been beat 8 times. 74% success rate.

The share disparity is staggering. In fewer minutes, the equivalent of a whole game ( 90 minutes). Ora has been involved in 3 times the number of tackles Kompany has been, and has won 3 times the number of tackles. In fewer minutes! It's mind boggling how drastic the difference is.

I'll admit, part of the reason is simply that Ota has played more against teams with an attacking intent than those Komp faced, but even when you account for that, he is still clearly superior.

2. I don't know why you make these claims, I did not 'conveniently ignore' anything. Must you falsely accuse me of things to make a point? I believe I answered your question in my last post. Otamendi has more blocks than Kompany.
Kompany has 11 blocks. Otamendi has 13 blocks. So what exactly are you on about?

3. Sure, I know what statistically significant means. But again, I repeat, the question is whether Ota has been better than Kompany this season. I can ask if Otamendi was better than Mangala in the last game, or who was the best City player last month? It matters lilt that this wouldn't proof such player is all time better than all the other player on the squad. The interest here is simply who has been better so far? Issues of statistical significance is just a red herring. Irrelevant. Never said Otamendi was a better footballer than Kompany. Simply that he has been better this season so far. Thus we only need Kompany's 700 plus minutes and Ota's 600 plus minutes to reach that conclusion. If Kompany goes on and plays a stormer rest of the season and stats racking up defensive tackles interceptions and the like then we'll conclude he was better. But on evidence of the current season, my eyes and the stats mostly point to Otamendi.

4. Again, I have stated severally, that I watch the games, often multiple times, and the calming effect you speak of is merely a phantom of the imagination. If you have tapes of the first 3 games, I implore you to go watch them again. The opposition in all 3 lacked any bite. it's the lack of an attacking impetus by our opposition in the early season games that that gave that aura. Kompany wasn't doing much different. He was often tentative in those early games, and he still is, but his performances in the early going were bolstered by great goals. A stat by the way I clearly counted in his favor.

So, again I see nothing in any of your claims or accusations here, that suggests I've been incorrect or incomplete or insignificant. But since you brought up "statistical Significance', would you say 'A having 3times the number of what B has and amassing that # after having played 90 fewer minutes" is statistically significant?
 
Living in the US means you speak American. Not to be confused with English spoken in England where the language was invented.

Just curious, when did you start following Man City and why?
Living in the US means you speak American. Not to be confused with English spoken in England where the language was invented.

Just curious, when did you start following Man City and why?
Actually, the History of English is quite convoluted, and a topic for a different day. And yes, I speak (well sometimes) American English while you speak British English. They are both variations of the same language. And by the way, English wasn't invented :p

As for the annoying question, I'm curious, why is when I started following City relevant? I seem to get this question every time I disagree with folks here, as if it's relevant. For the sake of argument, I started supporting City on August 10 2015. My reason? I threw a dart on an EPl table board, and it landed on the team in 2nd place, I was clearly trying to aim for first but missed by inches. So City it was. Fortunately for me though, I threw the Dart On the 10th, just in time to catch every City telecast and replay this season. So,luckily for me and unluckily for those who hold a differing opinion, this late joining the bandwagon of mine has not impeded my ability to watch, rewatch or even review all existing stats for this season. So there :) Hope that helps.
 
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