Political relations between UK-EU

One problem with this Roberto, especially considering rics opening post, when someone states their vision you and others will then simply argue why leaving the EU won’t make this happen or argue it can be done within the EU and the revolving arguments start. Back to 2016 we will go. I Actually have a lot in common with Rascals vision but I think its not achievable with our population.

I doubt very much a line in the sand can be drawn anymore on here. Let’s see how this thread looks in a week or two. I am pretty sure it will be a continued shit fest but start of a new year etc....

I have no issue with people stating a vision as Rascal did, some parts of it I agree with, but I‘m not a socialist, I’m for seamless trade across borders to the point they know longer exist for people, goods, capital etc. I don’t agree with raising barriers between countries and people. That is my vision and it pleases me when that vision gets more and more realised in Europe, or between other countries in ever closer agreements.

Now, people who support Brexit will disagree with this vision, theirs is more about raising borders and barriers, hence their hostility to NI and Scotland within our own Union. I can demonstrate the advantages of my vision, the positive nature, if you like, I’m just asking for others to do the same.

What is the positive and practical vision of Brexit? What are the immediate benefits, specifically the benefits we couldn’t accrue while in the EU? What are the long term benefits?

What are the political benefits as per the thread title, how will a UK on the outside of decision making, but tied to EU rules and regs fare in its political relations with European countries? How will our Union fare given NI is still in the Single Market, how will Scotland react to NI having a benefit that they do not or will Johnson do what he always does, hang tough and then give Scotland a devolution gift at the last minute to keep them sweet?
 
I don't make government policy so I don't know what the vision is (but I'm pretty sure it won't be Rascal's). It will be what we make it, for better or worse. But the thing is we're not tied to a hopelessly unrealistic vision of a federal Europe, with a single currency that suits only one country. We won't have the European Central Bank telling us how much tax we have to raise and how much money we can spend, who we can be friends with and who we can and can't trade with. That's why I voted the way I did, having been pro-Common Market but anti-EU, by which I mean the post Lisbon/Maastricht EU.

Had, hypothetically, we got this agreement before holding a referendum, it would be interesting to see whether the leave vote would have been higher or lower but we'll never know.

A guy I used to work with spent two years living in a caravan with his family while his house, which was old and had numerous problems, was effectively demolished and rebuilt. I see that as an analogy for where we are now. We've just moved into the caravan with all the disadvantages that entails but with a chance to shape the future. Change is always testing but people adapt.

Would have been quicker to say ‘I don’t know, but I hate the idea of a federal Europe and the Euro, so I’ll vote for living in a caravan for two years.’

At least your mate with a caravan had a vision, a plan.

I mean, give us something, you take freedoms and rights away from people you need to give us something back. A caravan park in Bognor in mid winter ain’t really cutting it.

The problem with voting against something is you need to fill the empty space with something else, and so far all we‘ve got is France and Germany were mean to us.

There are teenage girls less sensitive...
 
I hope we have a friendly relationship with our European cousins and our differences are put to one side. Only time will tell of course but i'm hopeful.
I think that we will

So long as our government manage matter such that the freedom that we now have becomes embedded and systemic - and no fudges that keep us inappropriately subject to EU controls - then I think that a couple of years from now it will seen as 'much ado about nothing'.
 
I would say co-operate in a number of areas like security, intelligence & policing, research. Brexit is (to use a phrase of Churchill's) not the beginning of the end but the end of the beginning. It's not the end of our relationship with Europe but the beginning of a new one.

The truth is that the EU is a collection of vested interests, where the Germans controlled the finances, to the detriment of most other countries (particularly in Southern Europe). The French were happy to tag along because they had the sop of the wasteful Common Agricultural Policy. It's done nothing to halt increasing authoritarianism and de-liberalisation in Poland & Hungary.

The Common Market was an excellent economic idea but the French & Germans had delusions of grandeur and wanted a vanity project involving increasing political and monetary convergence.The Euro is a sticking plaster covering up all sorts of monetary and fiscal issues. Freedom of movement was another piece of economic illiteracy, which just allowed the redistribution of scarce labour market skills (and therefore potential tax revenues) from poorer countries to richer ones.

I'm not claiming that being out is all sweetness and light by any means but at least we'll be hopefully doing things for positive reasons rather than deciding that this or that latest EU requirement isn't for us. I've always said I'd rather we were out, with one foot in, than in, with one foot out.
Really well said - shame that you were not more visible on the other threads.

I have said a few times recently that I feel (in a sense) like we have re-joined the Common market - a European trading bloc.

We want nothing to do with the federalist model that is now actually inevitable - so being cleanly out of the EU we can determine our own priorities and strategies.

The benefits of being out of the CAP will be significant

A lot to be happy about - and not least that - now the deed is done - surely all UK citizens and posters on BM, just get over it and plan to make a success of Brexit.
 
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One problem with this Roberto, especially considering rics opening post, when someone states their vision you and others will then simply argue why leaving the EU won’t make this happen or argue it can be done within the EU and the revolving arguments start. Back to 2016 we will go. I Actually have a lot in common with Rascals vision but I think its not achievable with our population.

I doubt very much a line in the sand can be drawn anymore on here. Let’s see how this thread looks in a week or two. I am pretty sure it will be a continued shit fest but start of a new year etc....
Indeed - surely people on here should look to move on

And certainly people wanting to fuel their desire to carry on talking about the 2016 campaign etc. are not being particularly helpful

Anyway - just, as typing, heard on the LBC news that all is quiet on the eastern and western fronts - particularly Dover

So - again - something that we can all be pleased about
 
I have no issue with people stating a vision as Rascal did, some parts of it I agree with, but I‘m not a socialist, I’m for seamless trade across borders to the point they know longer exist for people, goods, capital etc. I don’t agree with raising barriers between countries and people. That is my vision and it pleases me when that vision gets more and more realised in Europe, or between other countries in ever closer agreements.

Now, people who support Brexit will disagree with this vision, theirs is more about raising borders and barriers, hence their hostility to NI and Scotland within our own Union. I can demonstrate the advantages of my vision, the positive nature, if you like, I’m just asking for others to do the same.

What is the positive and practical vision of Brexit? What are the immediate benefits, specifically the benefits we couldn’t accrue while in the EU? What are the long term benefits?

What are the political benefits as per the thread title, how will a UK on the outside of decision making, but tied to EU rules and regs fare in its political relations with European countries? How will our Union fare given NI is still in the Single Market, how will Scotland react to NI having a benefit that they do not or will Johnson do what he always does, hang tough and then give Scotland a devolution gift at the last minute to keep them sweet?

The problem is you argue from a 2016 position of in or out, rather than a post-2016 position of something or nothing. Your vision died when your representatives failed to sell the benefits of the EU, highlight its positives and show its altruistic workings in everyday people's lives. Meanwhile Dominic Cummings and his ilk tapped in to everything those people had felt they'd lost under successive governments, found a scapegoat and played on the fears of those people they'd somehow lose even more.

Perhaps now we've lanced a boil and let it all out we can simmer down and have a more constructive relationship with Europe rather than the undermining bitchfest which summed up our relationship pre-Brexit.

We've got a Tory government delivering it for the next 4 years as Labour through Corbyn failed to stand by the strength of any conviction they've ever had and show leadership. Asking anyone what the plus points are compared to being in is completely missing the point, being in died in 2016 and it's not coming back for a very long time. You may have loved it, but much like your posts on here you talk down, belittle and criticise others who have differing views rather than championing your own and bringing the positivity into the discussion. That's symbolic of the pro-EU contingent prior to Brexit and it's why we're now in this position.

If you came back and said "now we have this deal I'd love to us work on these areas in the next 4 years, or I hope Starmer gets elected because he'll renegotiate these particular aspects because it'll bring these benefits to us which I really believe in" then the conversation would be getting somewhere.

Rascal, as usual, just wants entire destruction and us as slaves to the party rather than to private "slave owners" and still refuses to acknowledge the basics of human nature and hierarchy and also the power seeking malevolence of a certain proportion of the population who inevitably, in every structure that tries to put this theory into practice of any sufficient relevant size, ends up in charge and it all goes to shit. That's not a vote winner, and thankfully as the US has shown, that still matters in the end.
 
Would have been quicker to say ‘I don’t know, but I hate the idea of a federal Europe and the Euro, so I’ll vote for living in a caravan for two years.’

At least your mate with a caravan had a vision, a plan.

I mean, give us something, you take freedoms and rights away from people you need to give us something back. A caravan park in Bognor in mid winter ain’t really cutting it.

The problem with voting against something is you need to fill the empty space with something else, and so far all we‘ve got is France and Germany were mean to us.

There are teenage girls less sensitive...
I lived in a house with my teenage daughter and that's another good analogy. Lots of shouting and slamming of doors because she didn't agree with or like things that were said to her. Then she moved out and now has a little family of her own, in her own house where she can do what she likes. And me and her mother, instead of being the people who were continually "ruining her life" (in her words) can meet her as adults and equals. From being a drama queen teenager she's now a calm and confident mum. And it was the same for me and my parents when I was that age.

My vision for our future relationship with the EU is a bit like that, as sovereign states that treat each other as equals, can trade together without throwing tariffs up and who can co-operate on selected policies and ideas if need be but who are free to diverge on fiscal, monetary, social policies and other rules and regulations. Pretty much the same relationship we have with the USA, China, Russia, India, the UAE, Saudi, Vietnam, Canada, Australia and a host of other sovereign nations. We don't always see eye-to-eye with these countries but in general we live and let live, trade happens and the world carries on turning.

Schengen was a European initiative, between 6 countries originally, not an EU one, The EU absorbed it as part of the Amsterdam treaty. There's no bar to us having some sort of freer movement with selected countries if that's what we want. There's no bar to us having an alternative to Erasmus, which involves European universities as well as those in the US or other non-EU countries.

I could travel to Europe (& did) when I was a youngster, long before Schengen, Some of my contemporaries spent a year at foreign universities in the 1970's. My son went to university in the US, which took some paperwork and the hassle of getting a visa but plenty do it. And he was charged exactly the same as his fellow students who were locals. Migration will still happen, both ways, but might be more difficult. But then plenty of people retired to Spain or bought property there before Schrngen or the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties.

Life will go on, some things for the better, some for the worse. The world won't end because we're no longer an EU member. Whart it will look like in 5 years I couldn't say though and no one can. That's a fact.
 
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Really well said - shame that you were not more visible on the other threads.

I have said a few times recently that I feel (in a sense) like we have re-joined the Common market - a European trading bloc.

We want nothing to do with the federalist model that is now actually inevitable - so being cleanly out of the EU we can determine our own priorities and strategies.

The benefits of being out of the CAP will be significant

I lot to be happy about - and not least that - now the deed is done - surely all UK citizens and posters on BM, just get over it and plan to make a success of Brexit.
I know it’s going over old ground with you and you might think I’m being pedantic but while I hope Brexit is a success or at least not a disaster and I think on a day to day basis it will make little difference to my life, surely it is down to the government to make a success of Brexit, there is little I can do as an individual to make a success of it.

Could you clarify your meaning?
 

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