Political relations between UK-EU

[mcfc1632]

Fractious - the reason that the EU 27 aren't voting until March is because they don't trust us to honour the deal in rule or spirit - if we try anything on there will be trouble. Plus some MEP's and regions will be affected by us leaving so there could be a growing anti-UK feeling simmering.
On our side it will depend on economics and Covid. Border troubles, job losses and economic damage and/or vaccine roll out problems or the death toll nearing 100k could mean the Govt stir up a fuss or manufacture some distraction to be blamed on the EU as a useful distraction.

Sooooo

You will be mightily relieved and positive that everything seems to be going smoothly?

 

[BobKowalski]

The problem is you argue from a 2016 position of in or out, rather than a post-2016 position of something or nothing. Your vision died when your representatives failed to sell the benefits of the EU, highlight its positives and show its altruistic workings in everyday people's lives. Meanwhile Dominic Cummings and his ilk tapped in to everything those people had felt they'd lost under successive governments, found a scapegoat and played on the fears of those people they'd somehow lose even more.

Perhaps now we've lanced a boil and let it all out we can simmer down and have a more constructive relationship with Europe rather than the undermining bitchfest which summed up our relationship pre-Brexit.

We've got a Tory government delivering it for the next 4 years as Labour through Corbyn failed to stand by the strength of any conviction they've ever had and show leadership. Asking anyone what the plus points are compared to being in is completely missing the point, being in died in 2016 and it's not coming back for a very long time. You may have loved it, but much like your posts on here you talk down, belittle and criticise others who have differing views rather than championing your own and bringing the positivity into the discussion. That's symbolic of the pro-EU contingent prior to Brexit and it's why we're now in this position.

If you came back and said "now we have this deal I'd love to us work on these areas in the next 4 years, or I hope Starmer gets elected because he'll renegotiate these particular aspects because it'll bring these benefits to us which I really believe in" then the conversation would be getting somewhere.

Rascal, as usual, just wants entire destruction and us as slaves to the party rather than to private "slave owners" and still refuses to acknowledge the basics of human nature and hierarchy and also the power seeking malevolence of a certain proportion of the population who inevitably, in every structure that tries to put this theory into practice of any sufficient relevant size, ends up in charge and it all goes to shit. That's not a vote winner, and thankfully as the US has shown, that still matters in the end.

The vision is doing quite nicely in 30 European countries. The world does not end at the white cliffs of Dover.

Although there will be a nice new lorry park there so perhaps it does :)

‘All quiet in Dover but up at the white cliffs, residents are “devastated” after Transport minister writes on New Year’s Eve to tell them Govt has purchased farmland for new customs lorry park. Mick Palmer says “country never treated its people worse”

'Betrayed': Dover residents furious over building of Brexit lorry park

Letter from transport minister sent on New Year’s Eve said white cliffs site will be turned into ‘Inland Border Facility’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The vision is doing quite nicely in 30 European countries. The world does not end at the white cliffs of Dover.

Although there will be a nice new lorry park there so perhaps it does :)

‘All quiet in Dover but up at the white cliffs, residents are “devastated” after Transport minister writes on New Year’s Eve to tell them Govt has purchased farmland for new customs lorry park. Mick Palmer says “country never treated its people worse”

'Betrayed': Dover residents furious over building of Brexit lorry park

Letter from transport minister sent on New Year’s Eve said white cliffs site will be turned into ‘Inland Border Facility’

www.theguardian.com

I suppose it's just responsible governance to plan for the inevitable 7000 lorries. We've all seen pictures of the M20 later this year if they are left to stack up there, but this is certainly a wake up call for those that thought brexit was a good idea, or that 'next to fuck all' would change in Jan 21

 

[mcfc1632]

The problem is that it was reduced to an ideological / political rather than economic debate. All there are are the vague concepts of sovereignty and control as you say. While these are strong emotive subjects that do hold significance for a lot of people, they do not in themselves represent a coherent argument to leave. I'm optimistic that the deal as it stands may at least allow for damage limitation, even if it does represent a substantial downgrade from membership.

People look for 'sunny uplands' - some I think just to keep their narrative of harping back to pre-2016 as the focus - I have never have seen it this way

There will be times in the future when we in the UK will be grateful to be looking from the side lines as the downward spiral across the EU goes on and on - avoiding that fallout will reflect significant benefits

Some have sought to keep it all about the ease of imports/exports - but that fig leaf will become less relevant and, as the months go by and the widely predicted chaos stubbornly refuses to materialise - that narrative will also crumble. The lorry drivers at Dover today did not seem particularly bothered.

No - its done now - and we all can look to a positive future - some will hang on in the hope of chaos but most will just get on with it.

 

[mcfc1632]

It'll be like living in a caravan for two years...

Now that would have looked good on the side of a bus!

Should we not consign the 'side of a bus', along with the f/c of emergency budgets and WW3 to the past and not bring them up on this thread?

What is the benefit to this new thread of harping back to days of the campaign.

As @Ric said in the OP:

"It's the start of a new era for the UK and the EU....." should we not talk about the here and now and the future rather than keep banging on about the campaign of 2016?

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

The vision is doing quite nicely in 30 European countries. The world does not end at the white cliffs of Dover.

Although there will be a nice new lorry park there so perhaps it does :)

‘All quiet in Dover but up at the white cliffs, residents are “devastated” after Transport minister writes on New Year’s Eve to tell them Govt has purchased farmland for new customs lorry park. Mick Palmer says “country never treated its people worse”

'Betrayed': Dover residents furious over building of Brexit lorry park

Letter from transport minister sent on New Year’s Eve said white cliffs site will be turned into ‘Inland Border Facility’

www.theguardian.com

Need I say more. The world does not end at the white cliffs of Dover, but they provided a symbolic breaking point for people to see the ship sailing to Calais to symbolise what they've lost, and the migrant boat scrambling onto the shore to replace what they've lost, and it is strange, unfamiliar and has no bond with them, and only reinforces the loss they've already experienced. Some people saw that and exploited it, until others understand it they'll never stop the accumulation of loss.

The sweeping "it's fine" across 30 other countries where women's rights have been repressed, where poverty and economic instability is rife, where terror has been allowed freely across the continent to kill, where jobs and industries are taken from communities because the race to the bottom makes it cheaper elsewhere, where conglomerates buy up local enterprises and take the control and community investment away. The distribution and impact of the EU can be reflected in UEFA, the status quo domineers of the west, the powerhouses of the established elite have swallowed up the resources, the young talent and left former Eastern and smaller powerhouses bereft and broken. The same in this country with the PL, where the old giants and community clubs have been suppressed so that a dominant narrative of a cult of Dippers and Rags can be proliferated. Beneath that, resentment grows and the feeling of loss spreads, and when an opportunist arrives they can create a scapegoat and seize power.

 

[mcfc1632]

The problem is you argue from a 2016 position of in or out, rather than a post-2016 position of something or nothing. Your vision died when your representatives failed to sell the benefits of the EU, highlight its positives and show its altruistic workings in everyday people's lives. Meanwhile Dominic Cummings and his ilk tapped in to everything those people had felt they'd lost under successive governments, found a scapegoat and played on the fears of those people they'd somehow lose even more.

Perhaps now we've lanced a boil and let it all out we can simmer down and have a more constructive relationship with Europe rather than the undermining bitchfest which summed up our relationship pre-Brexit.

We've got a Tory government delivering it for the next 4 years as Labour through Corbyn failed to stand by the strength of any conviction they've ever had and show leadership. Asking anyone what the plus points are compared to being in is completely missing the point, being in died in 2016 and it's not coming back for a very long time. You may have loved it, but much like your posts on here you talk down, belittle and criticise others who have differing views rather than championing your own and bringing the positivity into the discussion. That's symbolic of the pro-EU contingent prior to Brexit and it's why we're now in this position.

If you came back and said "now we have this deal I'd love to us work on these areas in the next 4 years, or I hope Starmer gets elected because he'll renegotiate these particular aspects because it'll bring these benefits to us which I really believe in" then the conversation would be getting somewhere.

Rascal, as usual, just wants entire destruction and us as slaves to the party rather than to private "slave owners" and still refuses to acknowledge the basics of human nature and hierarchy and also the power seeking malevolence of a certain proportion of the population who inevitably, in every structure that tries to put this theory into practice of any sufficient relevant size, ends up in charge and it all goes to shit. That's not a vote winner, and thankfully as the US has shown, that still matters in the end.

Those 'demanding' to know the detail of 'hard benefits' to be delivered I would suggest are simply determined to live in the past and not move on.

There are all sorts of analogies that could be drawn - but for me you need to secure the fundamentals/foundations of being an independent nation and then draw up the strategies for how you will then exploit those newly established opportunities and options.

In construction you see examples (certainly we CITY fans have) where ground has to be, firstly, made fit to be built on - or land has to be reclaimed etc - you do not need to design the fine detail of all the structures of buildings or indeed policies of government before you do the foundations - you need to get the fundamentals right to then move forward

I hope those that are determined to cling to the past are able to move on or this will be another thread that gets dragged down

Bottom line for me though is - now that we have now genuinely left the foundations are set to secure opportunities for a better UK future - starting with the simple act of having opted out of the impending downward spiral that the EU will not be able to avoid.

 

[journolud]

Those 'demanding' to know the detail of 'hard benefits' to be delivered I would suggest are simply determined to live in the past and not move on.

There are all sorts of analogies that could be drawn - but for me you need to secure the fundaments/foundations of being an independent nation and then draw up the strategies for how you will then exploit those newly established opportunities and options.

In construction you see examples (certainly we CITY fans have) where ground has to be, firstly, made fit to be built on - or land has to be reclaimed etc - you do not need to design the fine detail of all the structures of buildings or indeed policies of government before you do the foundations - you need to get the fundamentals right to then move forward

I hope those that are determined to cling to the past are able to move on or this will be another thread that gets dragged down

To be fair I think City’s long term planning was a little better than the Tories around Brexit

 

[BobKowalski]

I lived in a house with my teenage daughter and that's another good analogy. Lots of shouting and slamming of doors because she didn't agree with or like things that were said to her. Then she moved out and now has a little family of her own, in her own house where she can do what she likes. And me and her mother, instead of being the people who were continually "ruining her life" (in her words) can meet her as adults and equals. From being a drama queen teenager she's now a calm and confident mum. And it was the same for me and my parents when I was that age.

My vision for our future relationship with the EU is a bit like that, as sovereign states that treat each other as equals, can trade together without throwing tariffs up and who can co-operate on selected policies and ideas if need be but who are free to diverge on fiscal, monetary, social policies and other rules and regulations. Pretty much the same relationship we have with the USA, China, Russia, India, the UAE, Saudi, Vietnam, Canada, Australia and a host of other sovereign nations. We don't always see eye-to-eye with these countries but in general we live and let live, trade happens and the world carries on turning.

Schengen was a European initiative, between 6 countries originally, not an EU one, The EU absorbed it as part of the Amsterdam treaty. There's no bar to us having some sort of freer movement with selected countries if that's what we want. There's no bar to us having an alternative to Erasmus, which involves European universities as well as those in the US or other non-EU countries.

I could travel to Europe (& did) when I was a youngster, long before Schengen, Some of my contemporaries spent a year at foreign universities in the 1970's. My son went to university in the US, which took some paperwork and the hssle of getting a visa but plenty do it. And he was charged exactly the same as his fellow students who were locals. Migration will still happen, both ways, but might be more difficult. But then plenty of people retired to Spain or bought property there before Schrngen or the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties.

Life will go on, some things for the better, some for the worse. The world won't end because we're no longer an EU member. Whart it will look like in 5 years I couldn't say though and no one can. That's a fact.

‘Migration will still happen, both ways, but might be more difficult.’

Precisely. We can’t have ordinary folk travelling around as the mood takes them. There are forms to be filled, visa’s to be obtained. ‘Just like back in my day.’

They say travel broadens the mind, it clearly does not liberate the imagination to dream of better things.

And the myopia in ditching Erasmus for a scheme that is yet to exist, or could exist alongside Erasmus, is telling.

 

[west didsblue]

To be fair I think City’s long term planning was a little better than the Tories around Brexit

Yep, I’m pretty sure everyone knew what the stadium was going to look like long before the site was cleared. They did this thing called planning which was costed and subject to a lot of scrutiny before getting the go ahead.