Predator drones

[Chris in London]

Not the point I was making.

I didn't suggest the palestinians were guilty of whataboutery (though they may be), I didn't mention the palestinians at all. What I said is that the Israeli's were not the only ones who were (read Horsham's post for the context). It seems to me unfair to single out the Israelis specifically for whataboutery when it is something that so many others - for instance both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland - indulge in.

The rags commit fouls during football matches but it is scarcely fair to criticise them for that alone because everybody else does it too.

Your point is absurd as well as being mostly wrong. Most countries are not occupiers and all occupations ought to be condemned. It doesn't matter whether it's the British Empire, the Nazis or Israel. All occupations should be condemned. One occupation should not be used to excuse another.

However, in this case it is just wrong anyway. This is not about right and wrongs on both sides therefore (somehow) negating one another - rather than doing the sensible thing and condemning all wrongs. The fact is, in the case of occupation, there is ONLY one side. Palestinians CAN condemn Israel for their occupation because Palestinians have NEVER occupied Israelis whereas Israel has occupied Palestinian land for closing in on FIFTY YEARS. However, I also believe in looking at the balance of right and wrongs. The fact there have been rights and wrongs on both sides is indisputable of course, but the balance of rights and wrongs is heavily skewed in one direction. Israel has committed far wrongs than Palestinians. Whilst there have been Israeli victims there have been many more Palestinian victims even when you illogically disregard the fact that the Palestinians are occupied - which is a nonsense in and of itself, and is an attempt to remove reality from the equation.

The nonsense you are spouting is dangerous. It is the sort of thing that denies the Palestinians justice. Too many people think it's complicated and get confused by the fact that there are victims on both sides and so don't know who's in the right and what needs to change to actually make things better. Too many people think it's about peace and that one side simply needs to stop and the cycle of violence will end. This is wrong. It is not about peace. If it was about peace there would be peace. It's about getting the Palestinians what they need to live their own lives in their own lands. You simply cannot do that if you refuse to acknowledge that the Palestinians have rights to something they do not have. The Palestinians are the ones with the more legitimate grievances. Who deserve freedom from occupation - as the Israelis already have. Deserve to live in a land run by them with control of their own borders, skies, waters, roads and drinking water - as the Israelis already have. Where they can lead ordinary lives not blighted by security checks and road blocks imposed by an occupying army - as the Israelis already have. Their children should be reading books and playing games. They shouldn't be throwing rocks at Israeli tanks in their villages nor be a target for Israeli soldiers to readjust their gun sights. This is not to dismiss all Israeli grievances, such as the rocket attacks, but simply to say in order to solve the problem it must be acknowledged that the Palestinians have many more and they need to be remedied. Saying there are right and wrongs on both sides is a useless dangerous cliché that will get you nowhere.

Skashion, if you don't mind me saying so you have really got the wrong end of the stick on this. I really struggle to see why you think that what i said is absurd, and I struggle to see why you see what I said as being dangerous nonsense.

If you think that the Israelis ARE the only people in the world who deflect criticism of their own conduct by criticising that of others, by all means express that view and we can discuss it. But if that is what you do think, then forgive me for saying so but you are in a minority of one, because the French do it, the North Koreans do it the White house and 10 Downing Street spokesmen do it, the SNP do it and (as I said in my last post) both sides in Northern Ireland do it.

By all means make whatever points you like about Palestine if you think they are reelvant to the thread. But don't put words in my mouth, please, and dont criticise me for things I haven't said.

 

[JULES]

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

why are you looking for justification? you know everything anyway, don't you?

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

why are you looking for justification? you know everything anyway, don't you?

All he's saying is that he's not into carpeting children with explosives.

He's probably right.

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

You make me sick

Your basically admitting you justify the killing of children.

Erm, what?

He's having a joke mate

Ah, fair enough.

 

[Skashion]

Skashion, if you don't mind me saying so you have really got the wrong end of the stick on this. I really struggle to see why you think that what i said is absurd, and I struggle to see why you see what I said as being dangerous nonsense.

If you think that the Israelis ARE the only people in the world who deflect criticism of their own conduct by criticising that of others, by all means express that view and we can discuss it. But if that is what you do think, then forgive me for saying so but you are in a minority of one, because the French do it, the North Koreans do it the White house and 10 Downing Street spokesmen do it, the SNP do it and (as I said in my last post) both sides in Northern Ireland do it.

By all means make whatever points you like about Palestine if you think they are reelvant to the thread. But don't put words in my mouth, please, and dont criticise me for things I haven't said.

If I did get the wrong end of the stick it was because you were clear as mud in what you were actually saying. I had little stick to grasp hold of - although I know all about that. ;-)

 

[Josh Blue]

Same people, same arguments.

I do recommend a week or two away and then coming back as it just makes the whole thing seem totally farcical. Good people and good posters getting into shitty arguments on the internet. Arguments that neither will win and neither will get any satisfaction from.

Fence sitting vanilla...you've changed dude, you've changed.

 

[Chris in London]

If I did get the wrong end of the stick it was because you were clear as mud in what you were actually saying. I had little stick to grasp hold of - although I know all about that. ;-)

:)

 

[Balti]

bomb the fuck out of the fuckers :-)

 

[TCIB]

bomb the fuck out of the fuckers :-)

They have to look good though, base the look of them on Kit from knightrider or some shit :D

Badass inter continental thermonuclear warhead that looked like Kit, fucking win :D

 

[Balti]

bomb the fuck out of the fuckers :-)

They have to look good though, base the look of them on Kit from knightrider or some shit :D

Badass inter continental thermonuclear warhead that looked like Kit, fucking win :D

a bit fussy tbh :-)