President Trump

NATO will change and has to.
USA is no longer reliable and the Iran fiasco shows thst they are, currently, a liability to other NATO members. There will be a cost, that must be identified and met by the respective countries.

The one thing absolutely necessary to ensure success is the EU need to be kept well out of it, leaving member countries to run NATO or whatever it becomes.
 
Johnny Mars Bar said:
We need to get the ball rolling with this ‘middle powers alliance’ with Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan etc and just fuck America off in the same way we’ve mostly fucked Russia off.

At least until they’ve come to their senses and elect another Obama type figure who’s not a complete fucking lunatic moron.
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Ye but whats stopping them doing this again, honestly I’d be treating them like Russia and China going forward.
 
Blue Maverick said:
Maybe we should make the decision for them
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I'd be all for it. The other reason it won't happen is NATO spends about $120Bn on US made weapons per year.

Nothing would happen short term as these things are tied down in long contracts, but if the US actually did pull out of NATO, everyone else would have to diversify and find alternatives, it would basically revitalise European arms manufacture and they'd lose out on hundreds of billions in joint programs and create major competition for all of it's weapons platforms going forward.

For example, The F35 program cost the DOD $70Bn to design and develop and will make about $1 Trillion for the US arms industry over it's lifetime. Of that, ~$400Bn to other countries, of which NATO is $250Bn.

The replacement, the F47 is already under development.

If the USA isn't in NATO, the other NATO countries will come together to create their own 6th gen fighter, and then that will become an option for Non-NATO countries to procure instead of the F47. Assuming the F47 is as successful as the F35, that would cost the US MIC hundreds of billions just for this one program (admittedly it's the biggest one)

He isn't going to do that, and no one in NATO will push him because we're so dependent, but if it did happen for some reason, long term it would be fantastic for European wide industry and the economy as a whole.
 
Blue Maverick said:
Ye but whats stopping them doing this again, honestly I’d be treating them like Russia and China going forward.
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I think this is the biggest problem. It's not just Trump.

He's not just one bad actor. He's backed up by the entire republican party and 80 million voters, and quite frankly it's as likely they become more extreme, and more isolationist after he's gone then they revert to their old positions.
 
Blue Maverick said:
I bet his announcement tonight is a withdrawing and calling victory and pulling out of NATO. Them onto Cuba, sorry America you deserve everything that’s coming to you, Trump has done more damage to NATO in 1 year than Putin in 25, 400 million guns and not one person seems prepared to use one!
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I may be wrong but I’m not sure Trump has the authority to pull out of NATO
 
An alliance is a two way street. It's all one way with Trump.
- Slapping massive tarrifs on you allies (not just NATO).
- Threatening to Invade Greenland.
- Betraying Ukraine whome most of your European allies want to support.

Good job for the US that Congress passed a law saying Trump couldn't unilaterally pull out of NATO when Trump last suggested it.

Interestingly one of the law makers who pushed the law through was Rubio...
 
His no doubt 74 minute special address to the nation will be nothing but another incoherent rant that highlights his decline.
 
domalino said:
I'd be all for it. The other reason it won't happen is NATO spends about $120Bn on US made weapons per year.

Nothing would happen short term as these things are tied down in long contracts...
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Maybe those contracts have (or should have had) a sanity clause,

(a) This contract may be voided if the supplier or its head of state loses their sanity.
(b) This contract may be voided if the USA leaves NATO; see (a) above.
 
Lou Antony Morris said:
Trump can have a hissy fit all he wants but it's not his decision to make.

In 2023, Congress enacted a law that prohibits the President from "suspend[ing], terminat[ing], denounc[ing], or withdraw[ing] the United States from the North Atlantic Treaty"—which established the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)—without the advice and consent of the Senate or an act of Congress. See Section 1250A of the 2024 National Defense Authorization Act, Pub. L. No. 118-31. This provision emerged against the backdrop of debates concerning the United States' policy toward NATO and whether the President possesses the power to withdraw the United States from treaties without receiving the legislative branch's approval.
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Haha! Nice one. Congress ffs. Wake up you daft ****.
 
domalino said:
I'd be all for it. The other reason it won't happen is NATO spends about $120Bn on US made weapons per year.

Nothing would happen short term as these things are tied down in long contracts, but if the US actually did pull out of NATO, everyone else would have to diversify and find alternatives, it would basically revitalise European arms manufacture and they'd lose out on hundreds of billions in joint programs and create major competition for all of it's weapons platforms going forward.

For example, The F35 program cost the DOD $70Bn to design and develop and will make about $1 Trillion for the US arms industry over it's lifetime. Of that, ~$400Bn to other countries, of which NATO is $250Bn.

The replacement, the F47 is already under development.

If the USA isn't in NATO, the other NATO countries will come together to create their own 6th gen fighter, and then that will become an option for Non-NATO countries to procure instead of the F47. Assuming the F47 is as successful as the F35, that would cost the US MIC hundreds of billions just for this one program (admittedly it's the biggest one)

He isn't going to do that, and no one in NATO will push him because we're so dependent, but if it did happen for some reason, long term it would be fantastic for European wide industry and the economy as a whole.
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Britain, Italy and Japan are building their own 6th generation fighter, (GCAP) it's known as the Tempest in the UK. Germany, France and Spain are also building their own 6th generation fighter but they seem to be doing more arguing than anything else currently.

There's already more than 6,500 engineers working on the GCAP programme, I think it definitely gets built.
 
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