PSG vs Istanbul Basaksehir suspended after 4th official accused of racism

[domalino]

Well said. Still seems unclear what exactly was said, and in what context, so probably best to wait for the facts to emerge before jumping to any conclusions. Presumably UEFA will be holding an investigation, although given their track record that doesn't necessarily fill me with any great confidence.

Given what we've heard so far it seems like it could have been resolved with an explanation of the language mix up and an apology for any offence caused by the 4th official, but I suppose you never know how these things go in the heat of the moment.

 

[Mon Autre]

It's become more and more obvious over recent months that racism can be very nuanced at times. Because it isn't always clear cut and it needs to be contextualised, it means those who don't want to admit it exists or don't want to do anything about it, can deny it's there's by stripping it of context and making people's concerns sound absurd.

So yes, there are plenty of situations where it would not feel problematic to describe someone by their skin colour or saying "the black guy". But there are still plenty of situations where it wouldn't be appropriate. In a professional setting and in the midst of a confrontation I don't think it was a great thing to do. If, for example, you were at a customer service desk and someone was trying to return something, and the employee went to fetch the manager to put the transaction through. If when the manager gets to the desk and in front of lots of other customers asked the employee which customer it was and they pointed at them out and said "the black one", i think that wouldn't be appropriate. I think most would agree that that would be awkward. Perhaps it's the othering of people, or reducing someone down to the colour of their skin that doesn't feel right.

Along with that, it isn't always what people say. It's how they say it. It makes a huge difference.

Whatever the case, we'll have to wait and found out what exactly happened. And even then we might still not know.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Well said. Still seems unclear what exactly was said, and in what context, so probably best to wait for the facts to emerge before jumping to any conclusions. Presumably UEFA will be holding an investigation, although given their track record that doesn't necessarily fill me with any great confidence.

Agree. 'Black' when translated in to many latin based languages becomes a word beginning with N and that can put a whole different spin on it and how it is perceived. Ultimately Demba Ba heard what he said and took offence.

 

[hcblue95]

It's become more and more obvious over recent months that racism can be very nuanced at times. Because it isn't always clear cut and it needs to be contextualised, it means those who don't want to admit it exists or don't want to do anything about it, can deny it's there's by stripping it of context and making people's concerns sound absurd.

So yes, there are plenty of situations where it would not feel problematic to describe someone by their skin colour or saying "the black guy". But there are still plenty of situations where it wouldn't be appropriate. In a professional setting and in the midst of a confrontation I don't think it was a great thing to do. If, for example, you were at a customer service desk and someone was trying to return something, and the employee went to fetch the manager to put the transaction through. If when the manager gets to the desk and in front of lots of other customers asked the employee which customer it was and they pointed at them out and said "the black one", i think that wouldn't be appropriate. I think most would agree that that would be awkward. Perhaps it's the othering of people, or reducing someone down to the colour of their skin that doesn't feel right.

Along with that, it isn't always what people say. It's how they say it. It makes a huge difference.

Whatever the case, we'll have to wait and found out what exactly happened. And even then we might still not know.

Good post.

 

[FantasyIreland]

One of them had a Jason Lee style haircut (younger BM's google image), he's known as "Pineapple Head" is that "fruitist"?

I'm fairly certain 'fruit' has been reclaimed.

 

[hilts]

You'd have to be pretty disingenuous if you claim you can't conceive of circumstances where this could just be a clumsy phrase, without malice or even a translation issue.

Equally, you'd have to be pretty dim to claim that you can't imagine a situation where the same phrase is used to make a (dodgy) point or to be disparaging.

Only with first hand evidence and possibly knowledge of the individuals involved, will anyone (or any investigation) be able to judge.

So, if you find yourself sat in another country, knowing very little but still lurching to shout either "hang the racist bastard" or "another example of you can't say anything these days" then you are either a complete dick or so far down your particular rabbit hole that you've lost any credibility.

Post of the decade

 

[cheekybids]

If he’d pointed & shouted “him” but then it’s quite possible the offence would have been that the 4th official had mis-gendered the player.

 

[Fame Monster]

It's become more and more obvious over recent months that racism can be very nuanced at times. Because it isn't always clear cut and it needs to be contextualised, it means those who don't want to admit it exists or don't want to do anything about it, can deny it's there's by stripping it of context and making people's concerns sound absurd.

So yes, there are plenty of situations where it would not feel problematic to describe someone by their skin colour or saying "the black guy". But there are still plenty of situations where it wouldn't be appropriate. In a professional setting and in the midst of a confrontation I don't think it was a great thing to do. If, for example, you were at a customer service desk and someone was trying to return something, and the employee went to fetch the manager to put the transaction through. If when the manager gets to the desk and in front of lots of other customers asked the employee which customer it was and they pointed at them out and said "the black one", i think that wouldn't be appropriate. I think most would agree that that would be awkward. Perhaps it's the othering of people, or reducing someone down to the colour of their skin that doesn't feel right.

Along with that, it isn't always what people say. It's how they say it. It makes a huge difference.

Whatever the case, we'll have to wait and found out what exactly happened. And even then we might still not know.

I sometimes wonder whether we in the West are guilty of imperialising our culture on others to the point it's not acceptable to refer to somebody by the colour of their skin with good faith, non-malicious intentions whereas, in Eastern Europe or among Romanian or Romani people, that might be absolutely fine.

Who are the real racists here? I genuinely don't know.

 

[Mon Autre]

I sometimes wonder whether we in the West are guilty of imperialising our culture on others to the point it's not acceptable to refer to somebody by the colour of their skin with good faith, non-malicious intentions whereas, in Eastern Europe or among Romanian or Romani people, that might be absolutely fine.

Who are the real racists here? I genuinely don't know.

I think there is absolutely an element of that at play, especially when you consider racism is so often rooted in old power structures and oppression inflicted on one group by another. If you come from a culture where there's a history of exploiting and othering people based on their nationality or skin colour, there's a lot more baggage attached to how you address people from those other cultures today. If your culture has no imperial past, or is still feeling the negative effects of having been colonialised itself, the same words can feel and be received differently. But yeah, i do think we have to be careful before we judge people through our British lens. That said, we all need to understand how other cultures will receive certain language too. Football is a global game and with PR being so important I'd be surprised if there wasn't some guidance for officials on how to address people.

 

[Gray]

I am no racist never have been, but I think if asked to point somebody out I might inadvertently say "it is that black man". I would in no way have meant it as offensive.