Question Time

[BobKowalski]

You’ve got more faith in Labour than me

It is not a question of faith. The Tories have stopped governing the country. The court and legal system is broken. Prisoners are being released early. Social care which the Tories vowed to fix - remember the 2019 manifesto promise to ‘fix social care?’ What happened? Oh, that’s right they cut NI. Sensible governance abandoned for idealogical nonsense. I could go on, but you get the drift.

Labour will govern the country. This alone will make a difference.

 

[mosssideblue]

I’d agree with that but I’d counter the comment and say that anybody who has total faith in Labour atm is also going to struggle to get into MENSA

Based on what exactly, genuine question

 

[BobKowalski]

Ultimately I believe the UK won’t have to leave the ECHR, because over the next 10-15 years or so they’ll be a dramatic shift in the mainstream political opinion across Europe towards the migration issue, and the sort of schemes which appear controversial now will become the norm. Any legal or constitutional impediments will simply be moved out of the way.

You only have to look at the global population projections and where that growth is concentrated to see the sort of pressure that migration will place on Europe. Expecting all of this to disappear with Rishi Sunak, like most of the people on here expect, simply isn’t rational.

International pressures and world trends/events do not change with a change of Government. What can change is the way we tackle these issues such as asylum. Many European Govts are looking at ways to ease the flows and pressures including overseas processing, but they do so within the framework of international law and the ECHR. The Tories wanted to do it in a way that broke international law.

And that sums up the Tories. Law breaking. Be it partygate, PPE profiteering, illegal prorogation of parliament, Rwanda, betting using insider information - there is a dark rot that sits at the heart of what is now Toryism. The stench of decay is overwhelming and that stench is driving people to punish the Tories.

 

[metalblue]

International pressures and world trends/events do not change with a change of Government. What can change is the way we tackle these issues such as asylum. Many European Govts are looking at ways to ease the flows and pressures including overseas processing, but they do so within the framework of international law and the ECHR. The Tories wanted to do it in a way that broke international law.

And that sums up the Tories. Law breaking. Be it partygate, PPE profiteering, illegal prorogation of parliament, Rwanda, betting using insider information - there is a dark rot that sits at the heart of what is now Toryism. The stench of decay is overwhelming and that stench is driving people to punish the Tories.

A lot of signatories to the ECHR have broken ECHR law on immigration.

I make this point not in support of the UK’s approach but for accuracy.

 

[west didsblue]

I’d agree with that but I’d counter the comment and say that anybody who has total faith in Labour atm is also going to struggle to get into MENSA

Haven’t seen anyone say they have total faith in Labour or any political party. What people rightly have is an expectation that they can’t be as bad as the current lot and a hope that they’ll be significantly better. Not being as bad as the Tories is a pretty low bar.

 

[BrianW]

I am a great believer in the rule of law because once you go outside that (even for the best of reasons) you are on the road to tyranny.

I am certain Labour will rule within those bounds, whereas the Tories have proved that they are not content to do so. That, in fact, they hold the courts in contempt.

So if there was no other reason at all to vote Labour, that would do for me. I do not want to live in a fascist shithole where the law is whatever the government says it is. And while we are not there at the moment, we have taken steps in that direction and the government has encouraged the mob to hate the law and due process. If you can't see how dangerous this is, I can't help you.

 

[Chris in London]

Ultimately I believe the UK won’t have to leave the ECHR, because over the next 10-15 years or so they’ll be a dramatic shift in the mainstream political opinion across Europe towards the migration issue, and the sort of schemes which appear controversial now will become the norm. Any legal or constitutional impediments will simply be moved out of the way.

You only have to look at the global population projections and where that growth is concentrated to see the sort of pressure that migration will place on Europe. Expecting all of this to disappear with Rishi Sunak, like most of the people on here expect, simply isn’t rational.

Another Tory who does not understand the difference between asylum and migration.

Are you actually in the cabinet?

 

[Phil1]

Another Tory who does not understand the difference between asylum and migration.

Are you actually in the cabinet?

It’s been a long held suspicion tbf.

 

[BobKowalski]

A lot of signatories to the ECHR have broken ECHR law on immigration.

I make this point not in support of the UK’s approach but for accuracy.

EU countries are exploring overseas processing of asylum claims within the framework of international law, EU law and ECHR obligations. The UK Rwanda scheme is not about overseas processing, but sending people to Rwanda without the option of having their cases heard. That is why the UK scheme is so egregious.

Greece has been found in breach by the ECHR, although given the reports of deliberate drownings and deaths by Greek authorities, I think we are way beyond breaches of international law.

The Tories post 2016 and, specifically under Johnson, sought to break established norms and codes of practice allowing us to reach a point where we deliberately craft laws with disregard to international law and allow public servants to place bets using insider information - a criminal offence - and no one is remotely surprised.

 

[Brewster's millions]

Another Tory who does not understand the difference between asylum and migration.

Are you actually in the cabinet?

I do understand the difference, which is why I’ve used the term migration.

Migration correctly describes the increased displacement of people expected to develop as a consequence of the population growth projected for the next two decades. All major intergovernmental agencies refer to this as migration; some use the term irregular migration. You should also note that I referred to the challenges presented by migration in a Europe-wide context, rather than any individual country, which further supports to use of migration rather than asylum.

Thanks.

 

[metalblue]

EU countries are exploring overseas processing of asylum claims within the framework of international law, EU law and ECHR obligations. The UK Rwanda scheme is not about overseas processing, but sending people to Rwanda without the option of having their cases heard. That is why the UK scheme is so egregious.

Greece has been found in breach by the ECHR, although given the reports of deliberate drownings and deaths by Greek authorities, I think we are way beyond breaches of international law.

The Tories post 2016 and, specifically under Johnson, sought to break established norms and codes of practice allowing us to reach a point where we deliberately craft laws with disregard to international law and allow public servants to place bets using insider information - a criminal offence - and no one is remotely surprised.

As I said I was merely pulling you up for saying that other countries act within ECHR and international law. They don’t.

Why you then have to turn this in to a “yeah but your serial killer is worse than mine” is beyond me. I’m sure you have a point to make but I can’t be arsed trying to decipher it.

 

[Vic]

Be honest, have you got total faith in Starmer and Rayner??

A bit of faith, a lot of hope, and I expect the Tory meltdown to be a thing of glory.

 

[Vic]

Ultimately I believe the UK won’t have to leave the ECHR, because over the next 10-15 years or so they’ll be a dramatic shift in the mainstream political opinion across Europe towards the migration issue, and the sort of schemes which appear controversial now will become the norm. Any legal or constitutional impediments will simply be moved out of the way.

You only have to look at the global population projections and where that growth is concentrated to see the sort of pressure that migration will place on Europe. Expecting all of this to disappear with Rishi Sunak, like most of the people on here expect, simply isn’t rational.

What global population growth? It's nearly peaked.

Now climate change is another matter. I expect you'd think someone leaving their parched patch of earth was an economic migrant.

 

[Vic]

Would you have total faith in any new government that has no track record because the other side have been in power for 14 years?

What we know as fact is that under the current government people have on average got poorer, international trade is more difficult, the health service and education system have both got worse, corruption amongst politicians has gone through the roof, other public services have been cut right back, infrastructure spending has slowed right down and growth has been negligible.

There’s absolutely no justification for voting for more of the same. Anything a new government does can be judged once they’ve been in power for a while.

Someone expected the proof of the pudding before it's even on the table let alone eaten.

 

[Vic]

I’d agree with that but I’d counter the comment and say that anybody who has total faith in Labour atm is also going to struggle to get into MENSA

So if you have anything short of total faith in Labour you'd be OK in MENSA.

Are you doing this mangling of logic on purpose?

 

[Chris in London]

I do understand the difference, which is why I’ve used the term migration.

Migration correctly describes the increased displacement of people expected to develop as a consequence of the population growth projected for the next two decades. All major intergovernmental agencies refer to this as migration; some use the term irregular migration. You should also note that I referred to the challenges presented by migration in a Europe-wide context, rather than any individual country, which further supports to use of migration rather than asylum.

Thanks.

What I noted was that in the context of a comment about human rights issues in the context of asylum claims, you used the word migration as if the two were interchangeable.

You’re welcome.

 

[Jimmieblue]

A bit of faith, a lot of hope, and I expect the Tory meltdown to be a thing of glory.

Having lived through five Labour governments and watched them gradually dumb the country down, it makes me sad they’ll beelected. I know the ordinary working man will end up worse off. I am sad for our children and grandchildren because we’ll have to watch the same meltdown that we’ve watched before. No faith whatsoever, seen it all before and this bunch of liberal elites are worse than ever.

 

[Chris in London]

Having lived through five Labour governments and watched them gradually dumb the country down, it makes me sad they’ll beelected. I know the ordinary working man will end up worse off. I am sad for our children and grandchildren because we’ll have to watch the same meltdown that we’ve watched before. No faith whatsoever, seen it all before and this bunch of liberal elites are worse than ever.

You have literally lived through the worst government in history.

The NHS is not fit for purpose
Children cannot get dentists appointments.
Our justice system is broken.
The prisons are so full that the courts cannot send anyone there anyway.
Our civil service is massively overworked to the point that they cannot process the work, including immigration and asylum applications, that it receives.
Our military is rapidly losing capacity.
We do not have enough police, firefighters, teachers, nurses or doctors.
Our rivers and beaches are full of shit.

They absolutely trashed the economy, with dire consequences for homeowners and rent payers alike.

And it is a government that lies with impunity and thinks the rules don’t apply to them. That is why the Queen was lied to about the prorogation of Parliament, why Boris Johnson lied to Parliament, why parties were held during lockdown at number 10 and why in one last show of their rotten underbelly, the latest bunch of insider traders were using confidential knowledge to bet on the date of the election.

And your response is ‘But Labour?’

Seriously?

 

[Jimmieblue]

You have literally lived through the worst government in history.

The NHS is not fit for purpose
Children cannot get dentists appointments.
Our justice system is broken.
The prisons are so full that the courts cannot send anyone there anyway.
Our civil service is massively overworked to the point that they cannot process the work, including immigration and asylum applications, that it receives.
Our military is rapidly losing capacity.
We do not have enough police, firefighters, teachers, nurses or doctors.
Our rivers and beaches are full of shit.

They absolutely trashed the economy, with dire consequences for homeowners and rent payers alike.

And it is a government that lies with impunity and thinks the rules don’t apply to them. That is why the Queen was lied to about the prorogation of Parliament, why Boris Johnson lied to Parliament, why parties were held during lockdown at number 10 and why in one last show of their rotten underbelly, the latest bunch of insider traders were using confidential knowledge to bet on the date of the election.

And your response is ‘But Labour?’

Seriously?

Yes agree but I fear this next lot more, watch your pensions, they always raid something or saddle the country with debt. Growth, they know nothing about it.

 

[mosssideblue]

Having lived through five Labour governments and watched them gradually dumb the country down, it makes me sad they’ll beelected. I know the ordinary working man will end up worse off. I am sad for our children and grandchildren because we’ll have to watch the same meltdown that we’ve watched before. No faith whatsoever, seen it all before and this bunch of liberal elites are worse than ever.

Can you elaborate e.g. in which way or measured against Sunak et al