Racist Chanting

[Zodiak]

Thanks for posting that and welcome to Bluemoon.

You've made some interesting points, Racism in this country is often associated with socio-economics ( or those seeking to exploit it for their own warped ideology) ...however, there has been a long held perception of the Soviet Union being anti-semitic, which is no different in that it victimises on the basis of racial/ethnic/religious difference, in your opinion was this perception actually a true reflection? I somehow doubt that your country has an unblemished history of tolerance, I cant think of a country that has,and how do you think the Russian authorities should tackle the issue.

I didn't want to mix all the issues together, so I specifically tried not to digress towards, in this case, anti-semitism. Racism nowadays is usually associated with discrimination of black people, and what I meant was that it's the least "Russian" of these kind of issues. As for anti-semitism, I don't want to go deep into this (these are, after all, huge topics), but the interesting fact is: for centuries, the vast majority of successful Russian people have been of clear Jewish descent. The thing to notice here is that, as opposed to, say, American Jews, Russian Jews have little to no affiliation with the Jewish religion and thus they do not count in statistics as Jews. But Russia, I would argue, has the highest number of people of Jewish descent (not of Jewish religion). Most of the time it's impossible to tell who's Russian and who's Jewish now. Overt, openly Jewish communities, yes, very sadly, have been targeted many times. But those who have long become "Russian" are the most successful ones. I guess it all boils down to the simple folk, peasants, hating Jews for being successful. This very basic thing. But, again, I wouldn't really say there's anti-Semitism in its clearest form because as far in history as I can remember (say, 250-300 years) any prominent Russian - with a 9 out of 10 chance - is actually Jewish. So Jews are such a huge part of Russia that it's a... strange problem now. I guess anti-Semitism at one point contributed to their losing their connection with the Jewish religion and becoming Russian, but now they're a huuuge part of whatever cultural, scientific and political capital that we've had and now have. And at the very least, now, in the 21st century this problem doesn't exist in Russia. Jews are the last "minority" on anyone's mind now.

Hi Zodiak, your views on racism seem balanced and genuine but what views do you have on your homophobic government?
(Plus are you allowed to speak against them on here without fear of persecution?)
Genuine question by the way.

It's a craze that I have no explanation for. As for persecution, we're allowed to say whatever we want, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. In a very twisted (anarchic, even) way, Russia is a very free country right now. Those who are persecuted are not persecuted for their views (per se), but more because of their wealth/power/influence and so forth.

Actually, I do have an explanation, which is pretty much the same: the people are lost. They're scared because right now there is no identity, no one understands where to go and what to do. So, again, their natural reaction is to cling on to something, religion, for example, or nationalism, or whatever it is that makes them feel at least a little bit at home. They've been stripped of everything they had. The Soviet Union erased everything (erased the Russian-ness in favor of Soviet-ness )and installed a new way of thinking and being, and then it's suddenly gone, together with that it had erased. So in a sense there's nothing. And no one is there to shine a light. Under such circumstances, the masses flock towards dodgy ideals: nationalism, common enemy, gay people, black people, what have you. Because they're scared, because they don't know who they are. And the government, for some strange reason, decided to capitalise on this in a very awkward way. On the other hand, when it comes to gays, it IS something that's really foreign and misunderstood, so in a sense the majority supports these decisions. For better or worse, that's how it is now. But that controversial law is very explicit in that it seeks to protect children from gay propaganda. It doesn't directly seek to persecute gays. "Protect the children" carries a lot of weight in any society, doesn't it? Rather than educate, protect from corrupted ideas. Think of it as... everyone just suddenly remembered the core religious ideals I guess, that existed before the Soviet Union. Note that Russia used to be a very religious country. And there isn't a religion now in existence that condones gays. Any "Western" religion is exactly the same. The difference is: the West is moving towards secularism, while Russia is moving from secularism towards religion once more, as a way to at least somehow recover the Russian society. The government wants the church to lead the nation in terms of its mental development and national identity. Unfortunately, the government carries this out in a very childish immature way, and we get what we get. But it's largely just something that isn't welcome in Russia.

 

[cordonbleu]

CSKA DF Berezutski who was subbed early in the 1st half and sat on the bench said on the phone, " I did not hear any shouting during the match, nothing like that. And not heard anyone talking about it after the game. I was very surprised when told about Yaya Toure '.

CSKA FW Doumbia, a fellow Ivorian footballer, remarked today that Yaya greatly exaggerated.

 

[Zodiak]

Welcome Zodiac, and congratulations on possibly the best opening post on this forum, ever.
Please stick around awhile.
If there is one thing we need on here right now, it is intelligent posters like you.

While I too welcome Zodiac and the interesting points he raises I must take issue with much of his analysis. Russia's colonialism was to be found in its expansion from a small medieval state called Muscovy to the largest country on the planet. No racism? Lloydie's already covered the anti semitic aspects - what about the Finns, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, peoples of the Caucasus, Tajiks, Khazaks, Siberian native tribes etc etc etc? As for the enlightened educating of so many Africans the Soviet Union wanted a ruling elite in their client states that would toe the party line in their proxy war with the West and these countries and their peoples were exploited for their natural resources just as the Chinese are doing today and - of course - as much of the West did in our colonial role.

How does that negate my main point? My main point was that we never considered any nation, let alone an entire race, "sub-human" or sub-par to us. Foreign, unwelcome - yes, but inferior - no. Some areas were colonised more aggresively than others (but I insist the vast majority of that huge territory was explored and colonised reacefully), but largely I would say Russia, at least moreso than most other colonial states, tried to deal with racial/national/religious diversity on its huge territory in a prudent and sensitive manner. The Czar mostly wanted loyalty and most peoples were left alone. We've had muslims0 openly practicing their religion with equal status since Catherine the Great, under her protection. Even under the Soviet Union there was an idea of national republics, with national elites. Stalin was Georgian, Lenin and Trotsky were Jewish. The most oppressed element in Russian history have always the Russian people themselves, the slaves/peasants. My point is that, specifically, nothing in Russian history was racially motivated, nor can I think of any instance of "Russian superiority" in our ideology (while some ideologies/religions even now proclaim the "specialness" of one people). Many things happened, many ugly incidents, but never was there an overwhelming way of thinking that someone is sub-human and should be treated as such. I personally can't think of anything like this.

 

[Skashion]

There are some people who have a propensity to see things in bipolar, in either black or white (no pun/offence intended), or right or wrong, or right or left.

By the way, it is astonishing to see that there are still people who think Russia is some sort of unenlightened backward country. You probably think Manchester is far more sophisticated, cultured city than Moscow.

Yes, it's just that I'm not too weak to say something's wrong when it is. Racism is wrong because it is prejudice against something over which the person being prejudiced against has no control over. Racism has been the direct cause of millions of deaths and causes deaths all over the world on a daily basis. So. yes, to use your unfortunate phrase considering the issue at hand, yes, some things are black and white. Racism is evil.

Don't know about sophisticated but certainly more enlightened. Manchester has a proud history of fighting for freedom, democratic and worker's rights and more recently in its embrace of the gay community. Can Moscow say the same? Not at the moment it can't.

 

[nobody can eat fifty eggs]

I didn't want to mix all the issues together, so I specifically tried not to digress towards, in this case, anti-semitism. Racism nowadays is usually associated with discrimination of black people, and what I meant was that it's the least "Russian" of these kind of issues. As for anti-semitism, I don't want to go deep into this (these are, after all, huge topics), but the interesting fact is: for centuries, the vast majority of successful Russian people have been of clear Jewish descent. The thing to notice here is that, as opposed to, say, American Jews, Russian Jews have little to no affiliation with the Jewish religion and thus they do not count in statistics as Jews. But Russia, I would argue, has the highest number of people of Jewish descent (not of Jewish religion). Most of the time it's impossible to tell who's Russian and who's Jewish now. Overt, openly Jewish communities, yes, very sadly, have been targeted many times. But those who have long become "Russian" are the most successful ones. I guess it all boils down to the simple folk, peasants, hating Jews for being successful. This very basic thing. But, again, I wouldn't really say there's anti-Semitism in its clearest form because as far in history as I can remember (say, 250-300 years) any prominent Russian - with a 9 out of 10 chance - is actually Jewish. So Jews are such a huge part of Russia that it's a... strange problem now. I guess anti-Semitism at one point contributed to their losing their connection with the Jewish religion and becoming Russian, but now they're a huuuge part of whatever cultural, scientific and political capital that we've had and now have. And at the very least, now, in the 21st century this problem doesn't exist in Russia. Jews are the last "minority" on anyone's mind now.

Hi Zodiak, your views on racism seem balanced and genuine but what views do you have on your homophobic government?
(Plus are you allowed to speak against them on here without fear of persecution?)
Genuine question by the way.

It's a craze that I have no explanation for. As for persecution, we're allowed to say whatever we want, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. In a very twisted (anarchic, even) way, Russia is a very free country right now. Those who are persecuted are not persecuted for their views (per se), but more because of their wealth/power/influence and so forth.

Actually, I do have an explanation, which is pretty much the same: the people are lost. They're scared because right now there is no identity, no one understands where to go and what to do. So, again, their natural reaction is to cling on to something, religion, for example, or nationalism, or whatever it is that makes them feel at least a little bit at home. They've been stripped of everything they had. The Soviet Union erased everything (erased the Russian-ness in favor of Soviet-ness )and installed a new way of thinking and being, and then it's suddenly gone, together with that it had erased. So in a sense there's nothing. And no one is there to shine a light. Under such circumstances, the masses flock towards dodgy ideals: nationalism, common enemy, gay people, black people, what have you. Because they're scared, because they don't know who they are. And the government, for some strange reason, decided to capitalise on this in a very awkward way. On the other hand, when it comes to gays, it IS something that's really foreign and misunderstood, so in a sense the majority supports these decisions. For better or worse, that's how it is now. But that controversial law is very explicit in that it seeks to protect children from gay propaganda. It doesn't directly seek to persecute gays. "Protect the children" carries a lot of weight in any society, doesn't it? Rather than educate, protect from corrupted ideas. Think of it as... everyone just suddenly remembered the core religious ideals I guess, that existed before the Soviet Union. Note that Russia used to be a very religious country. And there isn't a religion now in existence that condones gays. Any "Western" religion is exactly the same. The difference is: the West is moving towards secularism, while Russia is moving from secularism towards religion once more, as a way to at least somehow recover the Russian society. The government wants the church to lead the nation in terms of its mental development and national identity. Unfortunately, the government carries this out in a very childish immature way, and we get what we get. But it's largely just something that isn't welcome in Russia.

Thanks for the reply Zodiak, it sounds like your government's just a bunch of dickheads being followed in general by another bunch of religious believing dickheads.
Secularism is the way forward for the world, not faith in some supernatural deity that dictates what you should believe or how to behave....just saying.
I'm sure you agree with me ;)

 

[sweynforkbeard]

Welcome Zodiac, and congratulations on possibly the best opening post on this forum, ever.
Please stick around awhile.
If there is one thing we need on here right now, it is intelligent posters like you.

While I too welcome Zodiac and the interesting points he raises I must take issue with much of his analysis. Russia's colonialism was to be found in its expansion from a small medieval state called Muscovy to the largest country on the planet. No racism? Lloydie's already covered the anti semitic aspects - what about the Finns, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, peoples of the Caucasus, Tajiks, Khazaks, Siberian native tribes etc etc etc? As for the enlightened educating of so many Africans the Soviet Union wanted a ruling elite in their client states that would toe the party line in their proxy war with the West and these countries and their peoples were exploited for their natural resources just as the Chinese are doing today and - of course - as much of the West did in our colonial role.

How does that negate my main point? My main point was that we never considered any nation, let alone an entire race, "sub-human" or sub-par to us. Foreign, unwelcome - yes, but inferior - no. Some areas were colonised more aggresively than others (but I insist the vast majority of that huge territory was explored and colonised reacefully), but largely I would say Russia, at least moreso than most other colonial states, tried to deal with racial/national/religious diversity on its huge territory in a prudent and sensitive manner. The Czar mostly wanted loyalty and most peoples were left alone. We've had muslims0 openly practicing their religion with equal status since Catherine the Great, under her protection. Even under the Soviet Union there was an idea of national republics, with national elites. Stalin was Georgian, Lenin and Trotsky were Jewish. The most oppressed element in Russian history have always the Russian people themselves, the slaves/peasants. My point is that, specifically, nothing in Russian history was racially motivated, nor can I think of any instance of "Russian superiority" in our ideology (while some ideologies/religions even now proclaim the "specialness" of one people). Many things happened, many ugly incidents, but never was there an overwhelming way of thinking that someone is sub-human and should be treated as such. I personally can't think of anything like this.

If you say that there has never been a notion of Russian superiority then I am sure you must be right. But the vast majority of the nations of Eastern Europe had their people treated as inferiors from the late 1940s until the late 1980s - that is an undeniable fact.

 

[I'm no cynic but...]

CSKA DF Berezutski who was subbed early in the 1st half and sat on the bench said on the phone, " I did not hear any shouting during the match, nothing like that. And not heard anyone talking about it after the game. I was very surprised when told about Yaya Toure '.

CSKA FW Doumbia, a fellow Ivorian footballer, remarked today that Yaya greatly exaggerated.

He would only upset his own club's owners, manager, players and supporters by saying that he'd heard these chants. The more witnesses that come forward, especially from within, the more likely it is that CSKA would be punished. Doumbia is only towing the company line.

 

[oakiecokie]

CSKA DF Berezutski who was subbed early in the 1st half and sat on the bench said on the phone, " I did not hear any shouting during the match, nothing like that. And not heard anyone talking about it after the game. I was very surprised when told about Yaya Toure '.

CSKA FW Doumbia, a fellow Ivorian footballer, remarked today that Yaya greatly exaggerated.

... and your point being ?? Of course,racisim doesn`t exist in Moscow.Well someones telling porkies and I bet its not Yaya.

 

[beehive_bob]

Just don't understand why there seems to be any doubt at all about the fact that racist chanting occurred. As an example, it was clearly audible watching SS2 when Yaya won the free kick outside the box. For Cska to then come out with a statement saying they heard nothing is despicable and shows that they're far more interested in trying to cover their own back rather than properly deal with the fact that there are problems with sections of their support.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

If you say that there has never been a notion of Russian superiority then I am sure you must be right. But the vast majority of the nations of Eastern Europe had their people treated as inferiors from the late 1940s until the late 1980s - that is an undeniable fact.

An Estonian friend of mine came over for the Derby and we were talking about how the war affected Estonia. His statement was quite stark. "Estonians welcomed the Germans initially on the grounds they couldn't be worse than the Russians. They were seen as the lesser of two evils." Huge numbers were deported to Siberia from the Baltic states in order to destroy their national identity in the same way the Chinese are trying to do to Tibet.

But you can't blanket blame Russia or Russians for that. It was largely one man's paranoia.