Ref Watch

[SebastianBlue]

Too bloody right it is - just how many games are played with two equal halves of 45 mins. Fuck knows.

I would say it has likely been many years since anything close to 90 minutes of football (not including extra time) have been played at nearly any level.

Average time the ball is in play in the top five European leagues is now hovering around 60 minutes, give or take a few.

It’s the reason that if a stop clock was introduced it would have to be 40 minute halves, at most, as footballers definitely could not take nearly 90 minutes of the ball being in play with the pace of the game these days.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I’ve long been an advocate for giving a stop clock at least a trial run somewhere and seeing how it goes.

It’s not happening anytime soon though. It was very briefly discussed and emphatically rejected at the IFAB annual meeting last summer.

I’ve read articles dismissing the idea and considered the reasons why. And most of them are easily surmountable.

The one reservation I do have though is the effect on the game at amateur level. Which is after all where 99% + of all football matches take place.

I saw that and was not surprised. It relinquishes quite a lot of control from the referees (control they really shouldn’t have).

And none of the supposed challenges are very difficult to overcome, especially as we already have very cheap technology to do it and many, many instances of successful use cases in leagues around the world (most with far more complicated time keeping rules). It was the same with the reluctance to introduce video replay for officiating. Viable systems had been implemented and tested for decades before IFAB, FIFA, UEFA, and the leagues finally succumb to pressure to adopt VAR; and they still managed to fuck it up.

As far as lower leagues are concerned, the vast majority of time keeping at the amatuer level is done via watch by the referee, so it really wouldn’t be that much of a change. Any coordination with the person managing the scoreboard time could just be hand signal. They already do it with many different sport, again, most with far more complicated time keeping rules.

The big change will be the elapsed length of matches. They may end up being more like 2.5 hours, but I think that extra 30 minutes is a small price to pay to get rid of the deeply flawed system we’ve d persisted with for so long.

 

[Stephen230]

I saw that and was not surprised. It relinquishes quite a lot of control from the referees (control they really shouldn’t have).

And none of the supposed challenges are very difficult to overcome, especially as we already have very cheap technology to do it and many, many instances of successful use cases in leagues around the world (most with far more complicated time keeping rules). It was the same with the reluctance to introduce video replay for officiating. Viable systems had been implemented and tested for decades before IFAB, FIFA, UEFA, and the leagues finally succumb to pressure to adopt VAR; and they still managed to fuck it up.

As far as lower leagues are concerned, the vast majority of time keeping at the amatuer level is done via watch by the referee, so it really wouldn’t be that much of a change. Any coordination with the person managing the scoreboard time could just be hand signal. They already do it with many different sport, again, most with far more complicated time keeping rules.

The big change will be the elapsed length of matches. They may end up being more like 2.5 hours, but I think that extra 30 minutes is a small price to pay to get rid of the deeply flawed system we’ve d persisted with for so long.

My concern for amateur football isn’t so much the managing of the time keeping but the fundamental change to the game at that level if they were required to have the ball in play for the same amount of time as at the very highest level.

It’s been proved that the lower you go down the pyramid, the less time the ball is in play. It’s not primarily down to time wasting. But just the quality of football. Basically the worse the football, the less possession time the teams are capable of and the longer the ball is not in play.

I don’t know how far down the pyramid that tests have been done. But it’s fair to assume that the lower you go, the less minutes in play they’ll be.

So by the time you get down to the Sunday League cloggers, Christ knows how long a game is going to take for them to have the ball in play for the same amount of time as is considered reasonable for the very best teams?

 

[Plain Speaking]

I put the detail of this post in the Fulham pre-match forum but it probably is most relevant here.

In January of this year I looked at the stats for various PL referee's, over all their matches in charge of leading PL clubs, over all seasons, with significant differences between officials.

The 2 referees with the worse stats for us were Anthony Taylor and Chris Kavanagh, the 2 referees appointed for our next 2 matches

"At City Pep has an average win % of 72%, at Liverpool Klopp has 61%, at Utd Ten Hag and Ole Gunnar Solskjær together approximately 55%.

With Anthony Taylor, City have a very low, win % stats of 55%, (33 matches), whereas not surprisingly Utd have the highest win % of the top clubs 58%, (40 matches), Liverpool 56%, (33 matches), Chelsea, 46%, (37 matches), Spurs 56%, (41 matches) and Arsenal 56%, (43 matches).

Anthony Taylor Referee Statistics​

Referee statistics and disciplinary statistics for matches officiated by Anthony Taylor.

www.whoscored.com

With Chris Kavanagh, we have a win percentage of 56%, (9 matches), Liverpool have a remarkable 81%, (16 matches), Chelsea also have a very high 75%, (12 matches), Spurs have 69%, (13 matches), Utd, 54% (12 matches) and Arsenal, 50%, (18 matches).
Considering our considerable success over many seasons this win % seems remarkably low!

Chris Kavanagh Referee Statistics​

Referee statistics and disciplinary statistics for matches officiated by Chris Kavanagh.

www.whoscored.com

For comparison with Michael Oliver, we have figures more like you would expect: City 77%, (44 matches), Liverpool 47%, (53 matches), Chelsea 48%, (42 matches), Utd 41%, (41 matches),

Michael Oliver Referee Statistics​

Referee statistics and disciplinary statistics for matches officiated by Michael Oliver.

www.whoscored.com

I had known about Anthony Taylor's obviously bias. Pep clearly knows it, and Taylor finds it hard not to smile when he gives decisions against us, like sending off Rodri!

However Kavanagh's stats, seem potentially concerning and as distorted as Taylor?!"

IMO we are being set up to drop points with the 2 least favourable/most biased officials possible! very concerning.

 

[Stephen230]

I put the detail of this post in the Fulham pre-match forum but it probably is most relevant here.

In January of this year I looked at the stats for various PL referee's, over all their matches in charge of leading PL clubs, over all seasons, with significant differences between officials.

The 2 referees with the worse stats for us were Anthony Taylor and Chris Kavanagh, the 2 referees appointed for our next 2 matches

"At City Pep has an average win % of 72%, at Liverpool Klopp has 61%, at Utd Ten Hag and Ole Gunnar Solskjær together approximately 55%.

With Anthony Taylor, City have a very low, win % stats of 55%, (33 matches), whereas not surprisingly Utd have the highest win % of the top clubs 58%, (40 matches), Liverpool 56%, (33 matches), Chelsea, 46%, (37 matches), Spurs 56%, (41 matches) and Arsenal 56%, (43 matches).

Anthony Taylor Referee Statistics​

Referee statistics and disciplinary statistics for matches officiated by Anthony Taylor.

www.whoscored.com

With Chris Kavanagh, we have a win percentage of 56%, (9 matches), Liverpool have a remarkable 81%, (16 matches), Chelsea also have a very high 75%, (12 matches), Spurs have 69%, (13 matches), Utd, 54% (12 matches) and Arsenal, 50%, (18 matches).
Considering our considerable success over many seasons this win % seems remarkably low!

Chris Kavanagh Referee Statistics​

Referee statistics and disciplinary statistics for matches officiated by Chris Kavanagh.

www.whoscored.com

For comparison with Michael Oliver, we have figures more like you would expect: City 77%, (44 matches), Liverpool 47%, (53 matches), Chelsea 48%, (42 matches), Utd 41%, (41 matches),

Michael Oliver Referee Statistics​

Referee statistics and disciplinary statistics for matches officiated by Michael Oliver.

www.whoscored.com

I had known about Anthony Taylor's obviously bias. Pep clearly knows it, and Taylor finds it hard not to smile when he gives decisions against us, like sending off Rodri!

However Kavanagh's stats, seem potentially concerning and as distorted as Taylor?!"

IMO we are being set up to drop points with the 2 least favourable/most biased officials possible! very concerning.

Taylor has been considered one if not the best referee’s in the league for some time.

He gets a high percentage of the biggest games between the best teams.

Do your stats. take into account the standard of the opposition?

 

[mancboy]

Taylor has been considered one if not the best referee’s in the league for some time.

He gets a high percentage of the biggest games between the best teams.

Do your stats. take into account the standard of the opposition?

All stats can be skewed in what ever way you want them to be by adding different caveats and perameters, as i put in another thread before the wolves game this exact discussion was being had about pawson and twatwell

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Does anyone know whether the time betweem the foul on Haaland for the second penalty and the ref indicating a penalty after watching the pitchside monitor was added on, or is it just time pissed up the wall. Also, when a goal is scored and they check for a preceding foul anywhere and find one, is the time from the 'found' foul to disallowing the goal added on? Both of these instances indicate dead time that should be.

 

[salfordbluetrue]

Taylor has been considered one if not the best referee’s in the league for some time.

He gets a high percentage of the biggest games between the best teams.

Do your stats. take into account the standard of the opposition?

With all the teams quoted being the top teams, and the large number of games, the chances of freak results is minimal.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Kavanaugh is a dipper.

He shouldn't be anywhere near our games at this part of the season.

 

[supercity88]

Taylor has been considered one if not the best referee’s in the league for some time.

He gets a high percentage of the biggest games between the best teams.

Do your stats. take into account the standard of the opposition?

They don't take into account the opposition or give enough commentary on the number of games or length of time either. We haven't always had Pep in charge under Taylor for example so the whole data set is coming from a position of searching for an issue that I don't believe is fundamentally there. If these refs were so obviously biased then they wouldn't get certain games. We've won three league titles in a row so they haven't managed to fuck us over yet!

Kavanagh for example has only overseen 9 league games, so it doesn't take much for the numbers under him to suddenly improve back to where you might expect them. Taylor does the big games generally and Pep doesn't have a 72% record in those either. Kavanagh also oversaw Palace's win at Anfield and the Carabao Cup final where Klopp absolutely slated him for his performance! If he is a dipper, which is strongly rumoured, he doesn't let it impact him when he officiates.

I believe they'd like an easy life and for the game to play out without them having to be too involved or make critical decisions that impact the game. But as Pep said they're all humans and make mistakes, regardless of their allegiance.

I've commented on this post a couple of times and don't want to make the OP feel like I'm digging him out, I just get a bit sick of certain posters whingeing about every ref whenever it's announced as if they're all corrupt. If they are then they've not done a very good job of fucking us over so far!