Ref Watch

[Cassandra]

I think that argument doesn't hold up. Getting to the ball is irrelevant.

The part of law that I think would apply is "A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences:..
• impedes an opponent with contact."

I thought Ederson arrived late and collided with Fraser after Fraser had turned to follow Cancelo. I think that it would be a fair interpretation that Ederson impeded Fraser by doing so, prevented him having a chance to get to the ball, and that it was a foul.
Presumably, the ref decided that either it was a 50/50 collision, or that they were too far from the ball for there to be any meaningful impeding (I think it fair to assume that the chance of interfering is considered).

OK, if that were true I'd agree but I don't see it that way.
First a question - in the absence of the ball how do you decide who arrives late?
Secondly I don't see any evidence that Fraser has turned to follow Cancello despite having moved about 2-3yds after Cancello first plays the ball.
Thirdly the ball has moved further away from Fraser and Cancello is moving with it having both a head start and the momentum so that Fraser's chances of getting the ball are pretty slim.

 

[Fiftyyearsandcounting]

Just before United's late winner against WHU, they were rushing to take throw-ins and keep the ball in play.
Not sure who it was but, from where the ball went over the line, a United defender ran up the pitch the length of 3 mower stripes (20-ish yds?) and then committed a foul throw, The ref' let it go. Had he told the player to go back or called out the foul, the delay may have ended the match before the goal.

 

[halfcenturyup]

OK, if that were true I'd agree but I don't see it that way.
First a question - in the absence of the ball how do you decide who arrives late?
Secondly I don't see any evidence that Fraser has turned to follow Cancello despite having moved about 2-3yds after Cancello first plays the ball.
Thirdly the ball has moved further away from Fraser and Cancello is moving with it having both a head start and the momentum so that Fraser's chances of getting the ball are pretty slim.View attachment 35172View attachment 35173

You need to look at Fraser's eyes during this whole thing. He was looking at Ederson all the time. Ederson was looking at the play. Fraser knew what he was doing.

 

[TonyColemansbagofapples]

The Ederson "foul" on Fraser is a complex one.
Basically the referee has three options:
A) It is a simple coming together;
B) It is a foul by Ederson;
C) It is a foul by Fraser.
If Cancello hadn't been involved then it would have been relatively easy to decide whichever of Ederson or Fraser was at fault - whoever played the ball first and before contacting the opponent would have "won" the challenge provided there was no malicious or reckless "afters". When Cancello took the ball away both Ederson and Fraser were committed to playing the ball and had little opportunity to alter course. Neither in my view made a deliberate attempt to cause the collision once the ball had gone, though you could argue that Fraser was better placed to take avoiding action, and in fairness he did avoid standing on Ederson. If you are going to choose options B) or C) then you have to be pretty certain who would have got to the ball first ..........

You have worded exactly as I wanted to but couldn't manage it. I doff my cap to you

 

[MillionMilesAway]

OK, if that were true I'd agree but I don't see it that way.
First a question - in the absence of the ball how do you decide who arrives late?
Secondly I don't see any evidence that Fraser has turned to follow Cancello despite having moved about 2-3yds after Cancello first plays the ball.
Thirdly the ball has moved further away from Fraser and Cancello is moving with it having both a head start and the momentum so that Fraser's chances of getting the ball are pretty slim.View attachment 35172View attachment 35173

Pictures help - thanks for that.

Clearly Ederson is moving away from goal at collision, and collides with the side of Fraser opposite to the ball.
Fraser is a yard closer to the edge of the area in the second picture - generally towards the ball, and about 2 yards from the ball at the time of the picture.

As I said, I think it would have been a fair interpretation that Fraser is impeded in getting to the ball. I thought it was a foul.

I didn't say it was the only fair interpretation, but that he may have been deemed too far away to be given a disadvantage, or 50-50.

 

[Cassandra]

If they want to stop people believing in a conspiracy they have a very easy answer. Be open and honest. Tell us who the match commander is, what they can hear, (just the ref ? all 4 officials ? Gary Neville!) Can a var official ask/demand every camera angle or is he just shown certain ones ? If he doesn't see them all, who chooses which he sees?

3 years in and no football fan knows the answer to ANY of those questions. No wonder they think its bent.
One thing I've learnt in life is when someone tells me it's ok trust me they are usually lying.

Having seen a few references to "Match Commander" and not really having a clue as to what they are I asked one of my virtual friends on the refereeing sites what she knew about them. She wasn't aware of the term but undertook to try and find out. She is currently based in Hungary having moved there not all that long ago from Bournemouth. She has extensive refereeing contacts and is much respected by referees both in England and across Europe. I think her response covers who they are and what they should and should not be doing.
This is how she replied:-

To me:
"I can answer this from a Hungary & UEFA point of view. Yes the referee can see every angle he wishes and as many times as he wishes. The VAR operator provides him with them. In Hungary we use qualified referees as VAR operators because they have a good idea as to what the referee should/needs to be seeing.

I've put an answer in the VAR thread about VAR match controllers. My info came from 1 IFAB board member, 1 UEFA referee committee member, 2 heads of refereeing abroad, 4 UEFA referee observers, 8 foreign FIFA refs, some of whom only have FIFA/UEFA VAR experience as it's not in their respective countries yet, 3 current UK FIFA refs, 2 ex UK FIFA refs & 4 Hungarian refs so it's pretty solid!"

On the website
"I have done some digging as this intrigued me! It appears to be a term unique to the PL. There are 3 VAR match commanders who I believe are Adam Carter, Neil Swarbrick & Mike Mullarkey. Their role is to oversee the processes & ensure protocol is followed etc. They are allowed to be in and about at Stockley Park but not allowed to be involved in any decision making. Remember that incident when Neil Swarbrick & Stuart Attwell had words at one game a year or so ago? Can't remember the game off hand.

In Germany they use the term VAR project manager for what I think is the same role. Hellmut Krug was sacked in Germany in 2017 after an allegation he had interfered with 2 penalty decisions. He and the VAR team denied he had any influence but he was sacked anyway. https://www.dw.com/en/dfb-part-ways-with-var-project-manager-hellmut-krug/a-41261100

In terms of the responses I received from those in non UK refereeing:

IFAB - it is not a phrase they are familiar with.
UEFA - Neither UEFA nor FIFA have heard of this position but it could mean a VAR manager, which is a recognised role. Neither UEFA nor FIFA allow the VAR manager to be online with the VAR team or present in the VOR. They are not allowed to communicate with the VAR team at all unless there is a technical issue.
I also asked FIFA level refs from Hungary, Romania, Albania, Serbia, Slovakia & Russia - none have heard the term VAR match commander but all mentioned that there is a VAR manager present at Nyon, who ensures everything is working correctly and assists if there is a problem eg the comms going down but otherwise has no communication with the team during a match.

My conclusion is that the VAR match commander is just a fancy term for the VAR manager role. If they are however communicating with the VAR team during a match either by being online with the team or being in the VOR then they are breaching FIFA/UEFA guidelines and rules and should be removed immediately. They should also be sacked as was done in Germany even though it was not proven. It raises an integrity issue. Whether this occurs or not I do not know and I am not suggesting that it does."

 

[Jesus H Gabz]

Fair doo’s to all on the debate whatever your opinion has been, whether you’ve had your blue specs on or your referees whistle handy, it’s been a good clean informative few pages

 

[Gray]

OK, if that were true I'd agree but I don't see it that way.
First a question - in the absence of the ball how do you decide who arrives late?
Secondly I don't see any evidence that Fraser has turned to follow Cancello despite having moved about 2-3yds after Cancello first plays the ball.
Thirdly the ball has moved further away from Fraser and Cancello is moving with it having both a head start and the momentum so that Fraser's chances of getting the ball are pretty slim.View attachment 35172View attachment 35173

If that had been de Gea we would never have heard another thing about it.

 

[Scottyboi]

Watching our brilliant season under Keegan, go to 34 minutes in with Darren Huckerby and check who the ref is lmao bent bastard.

 

[M12Blue]

I

Having seen a few references to "Match Commander" and not really having a clue as to what they are I asked one of my virtual friends on the refereeing sites what she knew about them. She wasn't aware of the term but undertook to try and find out. She is currently based in Hungary having moved there not all that long ago from Bournemouth. She has extensive refereeing contacts and is much respected by referees both in England and across Europe. I think her response covers who they are and what they should and should not be doing.
This is how she replied:-

To me:
"I can answer this from a Hungary & UEFA point of view. Yes the referee can see every angle he wishes and as many times as he wishes. The VAR operator provides him with them. In Hungary we use qualified referees as VAR operators because they have a good idea as to what the referee should/needs to be seeing.

I've put an answer in the VAR thread about VAR match controllers. My info came from 1 IFAB board member, 1 UEFA referee committee member, 2 heads of refereeing abroad, 4 UEFA referee observers, 8 foreign FIFA refs, some of whom only have FIFA/UEFA VAR experience as it's not in their respective countries yet, 3 current UK FIFA refs, 2 ex UK FIFA refs & 4 Hungarian refs so it's pretty solid!"

On the website
"I have done some digging as this intrigued me! It appears to be a term unique to the PL. There are 3 VAR match commanders who I believe are Adam Carter, Neil Swarbrick & Mike Mullarkey. Their role is to oversee the processes & ensure protocol is followed etc. They are allowed to be in and about at Stockley Park but not allowed to be involved in any decision making. Remember that incident when Neil Swarbrick & Stuart Attwell had words at one game a year or so ago? Can't remember the game off hand.

In Germany they use the term VAR project manager for what I think is the same role. Hellmut Krug was sacked in Germany in 2017 after an allegation he had interfered with 2 penalty decisions. He and the VAR team denied he had any influence but he was sacked anyway. https://www.dw.com/en/dfb-part-ways-with-var-project-manager-hellmut-krug/a-41261100

In terms of the responses I received from those in non UK refereeing:

IFAB - it is not a phrase they are familiar with.
UEFA - Neither UEFA nor FIFA have heard of this position but it could mean a VAR manager, which is a recognised role. Neither UEFA nor FIFA allow the VAR manager to be online with the VAR team or present in the VOR. They are not allowed to communicate with the VAR team at all unless there is a technical issue.
I also asked FIFA level refs from Hungary, Romania, Albania, Serbia, Slovakia & Russia - none have heard the term VAR match commander but all mentioned that there is a VAR manager present at Nyon, who ensures everything is working correctly and assists if there is a problem eg the comms going down but otherwise has no communication with the team during a match.

My conclusion is that the VAR match commander is just a fancy term for the VAR manager role. If they are however communicating with the VAR team during a match either by being online with the team or being in the VOR then they are breaching FIFA/UEFA guidelines and rules and should be removed immediately. They should also be sacked as was done in Germany even though it was not proven. It raises an integrity issue. Whether this occurs or not I do not know and I am not suggesting that it does."

'If they are communicating with the VAR team' I would put my mortgage on tgat they do from time to time