Ref Watch

[Mikejl]

One thing I've noticed is that they're pretty quick to say what they think and it's generally the way they want it to go rather than what it actually should be, almost like they are trying to prompt or influence the decision, it's made me think on more than one occasion that VAR and the commentary team can hear each other at least.

This is always the case and it’s puzzling as they editorialising without the evidence of the replays.

 

[Big Ellens Bell]

Stuart Attwell has indeed refereed Brighton in 5 PL games this season. They have not lost a single one of them.

The results are
Palace 1 - BHA 1
BHA 1 - Liverpool 1
Southampton 1 - BHA 2
Chelsea 0 - BHA 0
BHA 3 - City 2

There are some interesting features of these games.

In the Palace game, with Brighton losing 1-0, 10 minutes of injury time were added, with BHA scoring on the 90 minute mark.

In the Liverpool game, with Liverpool winning 1-0 Brighton were awarded a penalty described by the BBC as 'controversial' after 3 minutes of added time. Brighton had also been awarded a penalty after 20 minutes which they missed with the score still 0-0. Liverpool had two goals ruled out by VAR for offside.

In the Southampton game, with Brighton winning 2-1 Atwell denied a penalty appeal when Kyle Walker-Peters "went to ground." VAR did not overturn the decision. (Sounds familiar for some reason.)

The Chelsea game was the one on the evening that the Superleague started to fall apart.

And we all know what happened on Tuesday.

Shows how corrupt the game has become with refs supplementing their incomes with brown envelopes.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Unsurprisingly refereed Crystal Palace v Brighton, 1-1 draw with a penalty and red card. Fourth official, Lee Mason...penalty awarded?




Brighton 1-1 Liverpool. A last minute Brighton pen for the equaliser. Brighton were awarded 2 penalties, missed one, and Liverpool had 2 goals chalked off by VAR. First pen was a pen, this was the offside call for the first VAR.



2nd one was clearly off. This was the 2nd pen.



Southampton 1-2 Brighton. On the Beeb and nothing of note.

Chelsea 0-0 Brighton. Brighton with a player sent off. Nothing really to note.

Brighton 3-2 City. Enough said.

So really, 3 out of the 5 something was obviously up in, the other 2 not so clear, but the most 2 blatantly obvious games were both on BT Sport.

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

Unsurprisingly refereed Crystal Palace v Brighton, 1-1 draw with a penalty and red card. Fourth official, Lee Mason...penalty awarded?
View attachment 17371

View attachment 17372

Brighton 1-1 Liverpool. A last minute Brighton pen for the equaliser. Brighton were awarded 2 penalties, missed one, and Liverpool had 2 goals chalked off by VAR. First pen was a pen, this was the offside call for the first VAR.

View attachment 17373

2nd one was clearly off. This was the 2nd pen.

View attachment 17374

Southampton 1-2 Brighton. On the Beeb and nothing of note.

Chelsea 0-0 Brighton. Brighton with a player sent off. Nothing really to note.

Brighton 3-2 City. Enough said.

So really, 3 out of the 5 something was obviously up in, the other 2 not so clear, but the most 2 blatantly obvious games were both on BT Sport.

I looked back further and he seems to ref them against “big teams” (Chelsea feature a lot) and they invariably get a result. There are also some odd spankings in there too a 0-5 and a 0-3 against the rags, plus plenty of cards (red and yellow). Didn’t go as far to check the corners stats but he may be a Better’s dream of a ref

 

[Mike Cledford]

If he is a total idiot incompetent then there is another explanation. I understand why it cou ld be called cheating but I fail to see whats been gained from a dead rubber match

For me what's more worrying is the near total silence on the refs performance. He could have been cheating but no one looks or investigates!

It wasn't a total silence. One of the two Breakfast reports l heard showed Cavani's goal and mentioned 'some people think it was offside' in the same way he might have said 'some people think the earth is flat'. It didn't show or explain why it might have been offside. The comment was not made at all on the other report.
So that was the only thing that did break the silence out of all the strange happenings on Tuesday night and it was soon removed.
Modern football gets curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Newquayblue]

I disagree. Jesus did nothing to warrant giving away a free kick. There is no way Attwell was about to penalize him.

Watch the replay again, and look at only the Brighton player that fouls Jesus, and his position in relation to the ball. This is a premeditated kick at Jesus, with no intention to play the ball, which was actually nowhere near the Brighton player. This foul alone is worthy of a red card.

Attwell should have given the foul and cautioned or red carded the Brighton player. He raised his whistle to his mouth, but for some reason allowed play to continue.

VAR protocol says that VAR can intervene for the following reasons:



So if Attwell missed the foul on Jesus, Moss should have asked him to review it for a potential red card. Moss should also have recommended a review for the penalty incident at the end, because to not award that was clearly an error.

I think this is as corrupt as it gets.

Definitely not defending Attwell or Moss I absolutely agree with you on that - nor do I think Gabby actually fouled the Brighton player just my opinion on Attwell's intent during that incident. What makes it more infuriating is there's never an iota of acknowledgement, attempts to justify or any reporting of what happens when so many, ridiculously obvious, wrong decisions are made. Surely it must be pointed out to him, and Moss, by someone monitoring reffing performance. It beggars belief if there aren't any form of sanctions for such dreadfully poor officiating and, for the sake of integrity, these should be made public.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Definitely not defending Attwell or Moss I absolutely agree with you on that - nor do I think Gabby actually fouled the Brighton player just my opinion on Attwell's intent during that incident. What makes it more infuriating is there's never an iota of acknowledgement, attempts to justify or any reporting of what happens when so many, ridiculously obvious, wrong decisions are made. Surely it must be pointed out to him, and Moss, by someone monitoring reffing performance. It beggars belief if there aren't any form of sanctions for such dreadfully poor officiating and, for the sake of integrity, these should be made public.

Maybe, just maybe, they didn’t get any sanction, instead getting a pay on the back for enhancing the entertainment value.

 

[Paladin]

Definitely not defending Attwell or Moss I absolutely agree with you on that - nor do I think Gabby actually fouled the Brighton player just my opinion on Attwell's intent during that incident. What makes it more infuriating is there's never an iota of acknowledgement, attempts to justify or any reporting of what happens when so many, ridiculously obvious, wrong decisions are made. Surely it must be pointed out to him, and Moss, by someone monitoring reffing performance. It beggars belief if there aren't any form of sanctions for such dreadfully poor officiating and, for the sake of integrity, these should be made public.

Yeah, rarely do we hear that a referee has been punished for a bad performance. Nothing ever gets said. PGMOL seemingly answers to nobody.

I can live with the odd mistake, but when there are so many incorrect refereeing decisions in one game, all favouring the same team*, and VAR doesn't correct any of them, it smacks of corruption.

I still can't believe that Brighton player kicked out at Jesus in such a reckless and dangerous manner, bringing him down, in full view of Attwell and his nearby assistant, and went completely unpunished. City should ask for an explanation of this from Riley.

*With the acknowledgement that Garcia could easily have given away a penalty, to compound his ineptitude.

 

[blueju]

I completely agree but do you know for sure how foreign leagues deal with such situations in their domestic competions or even other sports when mistakes are made or incidents are not clear?
Mistakes will always happen although with most foreign or rugby refs there will be far fewer.
I will repeat myself saying that in the first year of VAR the refs were absolutely dead against refs themselves going to the screen and having a second look. They are still reluctant to do this.
So what makes these people so powerful they can refuse to implement something like that?

And of course why can the Redshirts get away with still not having a scoreboard so the match going fan can tell what is going on?.

Great point and this is another the media choose to ignore. Not once have I read an article discussing how the two most successful clubs in England, absolutely swilling in money, can get away with not showing replays immediately inside the ground for everyone to see. Who decided everyone else should replay incidents but not these two?

 

[W12]

Have we appealed the Cancelo red card?

 

[dickie davies]

Ive been watching football for 47 years and i have never subscribed to bent officiating.Believe me i have seen some awful officiating. I also like betting on football but after what i witnessed last night i am coming round to the idea that something was going on betting wise.It was so wrong.
Never a red
Gundogan foul?
Brightons 3rd did they look at off side.
Foul on Jesus
Foul on Foden
Bank accounts need checking id start with Atwell and Mosses families and associates.

If something was found you know how it would be reported (spun)

Unusual betting patterns on a match in which newly crowned Premier league champions, Manchester City, lost, from being two nil up, have led to numerous arrests

 

[Chi-town blues]

If something was found you know how it would be reported (spun)

Unusual betting patterns on a match in which newly crowned Premier league champions, Manchester City, lost, from being two nil up, have led to numerous arrests

I don’t know what was the odds like but sounds tempting for bookie “new champs of england vs underdog “

 

[Mike Cledford]

Great point and this is another the media choose to ignore. Not once have I read an article discussing how the two most successful clubs in England, absolutely swilling in money, can get away with not showing replays immediately inside the ground for everyone to see. Who decided everyone else should replay incidents but not these two?

It really annoys me when we scored in normal times we have to wait wondering what's going on but we do get limited info from the scoreboard. Liverpool and the rags do not even get our small amount and yet are seemingly not bothered which is weird. Almost as if they are happy that the outcome will be on their favour.
As for those two Redshirts being the only ones that get away with not having a scoreboard it stinks. In this day and age there must be a way of imparting visual information. It doesn't have to be a traditional board. They get ads in Chinese writing literally running around pitch perimeters.

 

[Bandofblues]

Great point and this is another the media choose to ignore. Not once have I read an article discussing how the two most successful clubs in England, absolutely swilling in money, can get away with not showing replays immediately inside the ground for everyone to see. Who decided everyone else should replay incidents but not these two?

Not really sure what showing or not showing replays in the ground for supporters has to do with the ref or VARs decision making.

The VAR replays for controversial moments at the Etihad have all seemed to consist of 30 seconds of the var logo followed by a ridiculous 2 second replay or freeze frame for offside which doesn't give anyone chance to actually see anything anyway. Pretty much pointless. Contentious decisions are not really shown at all.

As far as I'm aware Liverpool and Utd still have pitchside monitors for the ref?

 

[blueju]

Not really sure what showing or not showing replays in the ground for supporters has to do with the ref or VARs decision making.

The VAR replays for controversial moments at the Etihad have all seemed to consist of 30 seconds of the var logo followed by a ridiculous 2 second replay or freeze frame for offside which doesn't give anyone chance to actually see anything anyway. Pretty much pointless. Contentious decisions are not really shown at all.

As far as I'm aware Liverpool and Utd still have pitchside monitors for the ref?

I’d say it matters as there’s no way away fans (pre-COVID) can see how their team is being fucked over at that precise moment?

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

If something was found you know how it would be reported (spun)

Unusual betting patterns on a match in which newly crowned Premier league champions, Manchester City, lost, from being two nil up, have led to numerous arrests

I wonder how many journo's have been 'lent on' over the years when they've been sticking their noses in?

 

[crazyg]

Maybe, just maybe, they didn’t get any sanction, instead getting a pay on the back for enhancing the entertainment value.

I don't know if that was an intentional spelling mistake, but it seems to be more accurate.

 

[Saddleworth2]

These past few games have totally exposed the way VAR is used and how referees are adapting to it.

It should be a system to double check and ensure the correct decisions are made, but increasingly it is being used to back up a referee's decision instead. The referree gives or does not give a decision hoping that VAR will help him, and then VAR just back up the referee more often than not. So, it does help the referee by coveirng his arse, at the expense of incorrect decisions, pulling the game into disrepute, changing match results and even encouraging player injuries.

Even that would be all fine, mostly, if the decisions reached were correct. I can accept I see things with blue tinted spec most of the time, but I can look at most other Premier League games where I have no vested interest, and see poor decisions not corrected by VAR. But recently we've had blatant contradictions in how the rules are interpreted agme to game, even decison to decision in the same game, and it needs explaination.

I have issue enough with VAR as a technology, mainly that it has become painfully apparent that it is unable to pinpoint the exact moments to use for offsides, creating yards of 'wiggle room' for the mysterious VAR operations room to play with, but even putting that aside the way humans are interpreting VAR's data is incosistent and wrong, and it is not a suprise that some teams and fans feel blatantly cheated. That puts into question the credibitity and professionalism of the officials and those behind the scenes, and VAR does not help itself by deliberatly making the process hidden and 'need to know only' basis. Which seems to include the TV broadcasters from what we hear the commentatos saying, yikes!

I'd love to see a nation-wise poll of fans now on VAR. Woudl you 1) Scrap it 2) Keep it or 3) Keep it but change how it is used?

I would be in 3 but only if the changes involved making the conversations of the officials audible real time to all. TV viewers, fans in the stadium, bench, players. Otherwise, just scrap it. I have zero trust in the officials who use teh technology... I mean, we've just seen a player sent off for a 50/50 challenge where the other player intitates the contact, and a player not sent off for an over the ball studs up challnge that injured his opponent, in the same game!

Now is the time for fans to ask questions of the officials. In just the past few games alone we have seen:

United given an offisde goal, arguing that Fernandes touched the ball on the way though depsite VAR showing no conclusive evidence of Fernandes touching the ball. Decision - Uphold referee's decision of goal. Inconsequential is the fact that Fernandes then reportedly denies in a post match interview that he did touch the ball at all.

Penalty not given in the Everton game despite it clearly hitting his hand. VAR shows movement of the hand towards the ball and definite contact, its nealry a full on punch! Decision - uphold referee's decision of no penalty.

Cancelo sent off for bringing down player though on goal. VAR shows Welbeck initiates contact and jumps into the air to get to the ball first so is not in control. Decision: uphold the referee's decision to send Cancelo off.

Brighton player only yellow carded for over the ball challenge on Gundogan, injuring the CIty player in the process. VAR shows challenge was over the ball and studs connect with Gundogan's shin and knee. Decision: uphold referree's original decision of just a yellow.

City denied penalty for challenge on Jesus. VAR shows the Brighton player catches Jesus and takes his ankle just after Jesus flicks the ball to his right to go around the challenge. Decision: uphold referee's decision of no penalty.

Ollie Wakins goes down for Villa undera challenge fomr Lloris. VAR sees that Lloris tocuhes Watkins but not the ball. Decision: uphold the referre's decision of no penalty.

Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Never have we had a situation where we are talking about 5+ contentious decisions for one round of fixtures, let alone one game. And the above clearly shows how VAR is being used incorrectly from a human point fo view, and thus not giving is the correct and fair deicsions.

If VAR thinks there is not enough to show a clear and obious error, then it does not do anything. But what consitituses a clear and obvious error is down to intepretation, and it does not take into consideration whether the referee's original decision has enough evidence to it to justify it even being given in the first place (i.e. the original problem!) If it is true that VAR cannot overrule the decision, and is merley the tool for the referee to use and decide whether he was correct, then you are asking the referee to admit he was wrong. I can impagine that in the mind of some this errodes any authority he has, but i'd argue not nearly as much as getting decisions so laughably wrong does.

I think I even saw the ref in our game blow for a Brighton foul when their keeper came out to catch the ball and fell over his own player?

Bloody fed up of VAR, and now with the way the referee's are 'adapting' to use VAR. It doesn't make the game more exciting, it doesn't correct the incorrect decisions and it makes celebrating a goal a hesitant affair rather than the outburst of joy and passion that it should be. I applaud Azaa for highlighting this in his social media posts, as highlighting this to the wider footballing community and joining our voices with others who are just a fed up is the only way things will get looked at.

Take it out behind the shed and put it out of its misery. And we shoudl be asking that Atwell never comes anywhere near a City game again in his career. His incompetence directly changes the result of a game and potentially means one of our best players misses a Champions League final. He's not getting decisions right, he's not protecting the players, he's not in control of a game, and seemingly he' not big enough to admit he has made several mistakes.

Good post mate. I like you would be in pot 3. I do think though that it is more fundamental. To me VAR has actually been helpful in proving the bias and incompetence which many of us have suspected in place for years and years.
that is what needs to be addressed. Ask yourself why none of these highly paid pundits hasn’t addressed this with a long video showing the inconsistency. There must be data which tells the story as well. Whilst media might address single incidents once in a while, where is the clamour to improve refereeing standards. The silence is deafening. My favourite bit of manipulation was the disallowed WBA goal against the Dippers which handed them another lifeline. This cheating is costing clubs millions and I am beginning to think that the silence about it indicates the malais is deeper and wider than we think.

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

With the number of blatantly wrong decisions which have been given in games especially during this last week, then the only conclusion which is credible is that the PGMOL reps are both actively corrupt and are guilty of ensuring outcomes of games which aid betting syndicates.

The PL have ensured that the rags and dippers get into CL places and their " product " ensures the massive incomes from tv .

Sickening and dis-heartening knowing that the whole corrupt shit show will continue to operate without anybody exposing or challenging for fear of the repercussions.

Despite the pleasure that City performances and results bring for me, the anger and frustration of having to watch blatantly wrong refereeing performances/ VAR decisions distorting outcomes is becoming more difficult to tolerate .

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

With the number of blatantly wrong decisions which have been given in games especially during this last week, then the only conclusion which is credible is that the PGMOL reps are both actively corrupt and are guilty of ensuring outcomes of games which aid betting syndicates.

The PL have ensured that the rags and dippers get into CL places and their " product " ensures the massive incomes from tv .

Sickening and dis-heartening knowing that the whole corrupt shit show will continue to operate without anybody exposing or challenging for fear of the repercussions.

Despite the pleasure that City performances and results bring for me, the anger and frustration of having to watch blatantly wrong refereeing performances/ VAR decisions distorting outcomes is becoming more difficult to tolerate .

Tbh if corruption was used just to get lfc and utd into the TOP FOUR then it's piss poor corruption. I mean why not make them win, anything? It just doesn't seem v likely.

The anger and frustration though.... Totally, it's getting to the point of switching off from football. They're literally ruining football with VAR just being there. All they've achieved is underlining their incompetence and randomness of decisions.

Fans/people want to feel assured by what they are watching and VAR is destroying that so much more than just "a ref getting it wrong " (pre VAR)