Referees will decide the title and relegation this season

[ono]

Using the latest cloning technology, The Premier League will clone Mike Dean 19 times next season.

They will also clone that fit physio at Chelsea (Jason Palmer) and that female liner, purely to help with the post game catering in the referee's suite. Last thing you want is 20 really hungry Mike Deans.

Oh, and Stuart Atwell is getting cloned aswell, obviously to make games like Wigan - Blackburn more interesting.

So no need to worry.

 

[richardtheref]

Agree, he should have had at least one yellow for persistent foul play. Am sure this is the reason he was hauled off. Was also constantly in the refs face every time anything went against his team.

Richard, from one qualified ref to another, how many fouls in your book constitutes "persistent infringement of the laws of the game", i.e. the actual yellow card offence?
I ask because the book doesn't tell you, and no referee can give you an identical answer to the next referee... in some games I'd give a yellow for maybe the 7th or 8th foul spread over a game, in others it might be the third foul in 10 minutes. Both would be correct.

I use this as an illustration to other readers here that there's no right or wrong answer to the "persistent infringement" argument and there's no exact number of infringements.

As for Adam facing up to the referee last night, I think dissent was handled poorly by last night's official. That was from both sides by the way... 4 or 5 players from both sides were constantly doing that last night. A very early booking for dissent was needed to set the bar IMO, unfortunately he chose to let it slide so he got screamed at all game. He rather made his own bed there.

I tend to issue a yellow for persistent if they do 5 fouls in an hour period. Obviously not an exact science but if any player has committed this many fouls in 60 mins i will warn him after the fourth that next foul he will be in the book. Again, if someone has committed 3 in a 10-15 minute period he will get the warning on the 3rd. Have also once booked a player for persistent foul play in the 10th minute of a game. This was his 1st foul but his team had targetted an opposition player and this was the 4th foul on this player. After the 3rd i shouted so that everyone could hear "next player to foul him is in the book". Worked on the day as i ended up with only the one yellow.

 

[Unknown_Genius]

Thread title - "Referees will decide the title and relegation this season"

So..... like every season in English football since it began? Referee's have always made mistakes, they're human, its inevitable, and some teams have been relegated or won titles because of it. Referee's are the same now, as they were 100 years ago. I personally have sympathy for them, as its such a thankless task. Of course you get some that seem to revel in the limelight, and it all becomes me me me. It just seems that standards are slipping, because you have persecution-complex wielding twats like Ferguson, and Barton, moaning about every bad decision, and how they're victimised, ignoring all the good fortune they get aswell.

 

[Anonymous]

we need technology desperately, it's getting worse every year. the reffing this year has been nothing short of a disgrace not just for us, even the rags got fucked over against newcastle, it's happening to everyone.

i'd suggest having a 5th official watching on tv with loads of different angles and an ear piece into the refs ear telling him what his opinion is all through the game.

 

[Dirty Harry]

I have been to a few refs meetings/seminars and i have spoken to Howard Webb, Martin Atkinsond and Mike Riley. They would like nothing more than to be able to face the press afterwards and explain their decisions. However, their hands are tied by the FA who will not allow them to do so.

Webb apologised to Martin O'Neil after giving a penalty to Everton and said from his angle it looked like Cattermole had caught Osman. I have spoken to a few Sunderland season ticket holders who were at the game and not one of them thought, at the time, that it was not a penalty. However Webb is crucified for this mistake? Until the replay only a handful of people thought it was not a penalty.

As for last night, if the ref had given a penalty against us for a similar hand ball to Skrtels we would all be up in arms about it. If it happened in one of my games i certainly would not have given it. With regards to the penalty, i would have sent off Skrtel but i can understand why he did not. Yaya was not exactly central and bearing down on goal and this may have affected his judgement. With regards to Barry, the 2nd yellow on its own was probably not a yellow but in the 15 minutes prior to this he had committed 4 other fouls, so it was probably an accumulation of fouls that led to this.

Hiya Richard and thanks for coming on to put your view across, but here's the problem for me, and it's one of consistency, Boyata was given a straight red against Arsenal in a similar position (although further out and the other side) and it was accepted as a red card offence straight away by the vast majority and for me it was the correct decision, yet last night nothing apart from the penalty was given.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryxgv3EMI-o&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[LoveCity]

Flash video technology. By flash I mean the video referee is given 20 seconds or so to watch a contentious decision with relay his verdict to the proper referee. Think about it, it wouldn't be like cricket, when there is a contentious decision there is always 20+ seconds of circling the ref, arguing, getting players out of the way, and so on. In that time, the right decision can be made.

 

[Mugatu]

Flash video technology. By flash I mean the video referee is given 20 seconds or so to watch a contentious decision with relay his verdict to the proper referee. Think about it, it wouldn't be like cricket, when there is a contentious decision there is always 20+ seconds of circling the ref, arguing, getting players out of the way, and so on. In that time, the right decision can be made.

Would you want that for every tackle that someone appeals over? In other words what is a contentious decision? When a player appeals that he got caught? Or when a player appeals that no contact was made? Was it a corner or goal kick? Throw in decision gone the wrong way? Serious question by the way and I'm not trying to be awkward... just playing devil's advocate as a game could go on all night if we're referring things to a 5th eye.

Some other questions:

1: Is it an idea to give each team say 3 appeals, like in tennis and cricket?

2: Whose decision to go to appeal? Captain? Coach?

3: Would it stop the horrendous dissent we're seeing now? (I suspect not).

4: How do you restart the game when a serious foul turns out not to have been?

I'm just throwing these out there because the phrase "technology" is easy for fans to shout, but the reality would be anything but easy to implement.

 

[es1]

Flash video technology. By flash I mean the video referee is given 20 seconds or so to watch a contentious decision with relay his verdict to the proper referee. Think about it, it wouldn't be like cricket, when there is a contentious decision there is always 20+ seconds of circling the ref, arguing, getting players out of the way, and so on. In that time, the right decision can be made.

Would you want that for every tackle that someone appeals over? In other words what is a contentious decision? When a player appeals that he got caught? Or when a player appeals that no contact was made? Was it a corner or goal kick? Throw in decision gone the wrong way? Serious question by the way and I'm not trying to be awkward... just playing devil's advocate as a game could go on all night if we're referring things to a 5th eye.

Some other questions:

1: Do you give a team say 3 appeal, like in tennis and cricket?

2: How do you restart the game when a serious foul turns out not to have been?

I'm just throwing these out there because the phrase "technology" is easy for fans to shout, but the reality would be anything but easy to implement.

i like the idea of giving captains/managers the option to challenge a certain number of decisions per game/half - probably 2 per half would make sense

if the challenge is correct then the game would be restarted in the appropriate manner. as you suggest, how to start it if the challenge was incorrect is the main problem!

i'd suggest the challenge has to be made immediately following the incident, and if wrong, an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposition from where the incident took place.

 

[Mugatu]

and if wrong, an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposition from where the incident took place.

And that's the main problem I see, you can't award an indirect free kick where no offence has been committed.

Let's take an example:

Kompany goes down on the edge of our own area going for a 50/50 header with a Liverpool attacker, the referee thinks the Liverpool player led with the elbow and awards a direct free kick to City.
Liverpool appeal it and it goes to the 5th official. The TV replay shows the arm didn't make contact and the City captain has in fact only clashed foreheads with the Liverpool player and happens to have come off worse, so not a foul.

In the example above, and given the restart policy you've outlined, Liverpool end up with an indirect free kick on the edge of our penalty area which really doesn't fit given that no foul has occurred.

Hopefully you can see that it's not an easy thing to solve overnight, the laws of the game need to be changed an awful lot from how they stand now to allow for replays.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I have been to a few refs meetings/seminars and i have spoken to Howard Webb, Martin Atkinsond and Mike Riley. They would like nothing more than to be able to face the press afterwards and explain their decisions. However, their hands are tied by the FA who will not allow them to do so.

Webb apologised to Martin O'Neil after giving a penalty to Everton and said from his angle it looked like Cattermole had caught Osman. I have spoken to a few Sunderland season ticket holders who were at the game and not one of them thought, at the time, that it was not a penalty. However Webb is crucified for this mistake? Until the replay only a handful of people thought it was not a penalty.

As for last night, if the ref had given a penalty against us for a similar hand ball to Skrtels we would all be up in arms about it. If it happened in one of my games i certainly would not have given it. With regards to the penalty, i would have sent off Skrtel but i can understand why he did not. Yaya was not exactly central and bearing down on goal and this may have affected his judgement. With regards to Barry, the 2nd yellow on its own was probably not a yellow but in the 15 minutes prior to this he had committed 4 other fouls, so it was probably an accumulation of fouls that led to this.

Hiya Richard and thanks for coming on to put your view across, but here's the problem for me, and it's one of consistency, Boyata was given a straight red against Arsenal in a similar position (although further out and the other side) and it was accepted as a red card offence straight away by the vast majority and for me it was the correct decision, yet last night nothing apart from the penalty was given.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryxgv3EMI-o&feature=related[/youtube]

except by the letter of the law Clattenburg was wrong as Hart had the ball therefore it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity.

 

[Soulboy]

and if wrong, an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposition from where the incident took place.

And that's the main problem I see, you can't award an indirect free kick where no offence has been committed.

Let's take an example:

Kompany goes down on the edge of our own area going for a 50/50 header with a Liverpool attacker, the referee thinks the Liverpool player led with the elbow and awards a direct free kick to City.
Liverpool appeal it and it goes to the 5th official. The TV replay shows the arm didn't make contact and the City captain has in fact only clashed foreheads with the Liverpool player and happens to have come off worse, so not a foul.

In the example above, and given the restart policy you've outlined, Liverpool end up with an indirect free kick on the edge of our penalty area which really doesn't fit given that no foul has occurred.

Hopefully you can see that it's not an easy thing to solve overnight, the laws of the game need to be changed an awful lot from how they stand now to allow for replays.

I appreciate the problems you mention. But that doesn't resolve the problems and improve the game.

I don't go for this "swings and roundabouts" argument where luck evens itself out over the season. I'm not interested in that. I want the decisions to be correct. For whatever team. In as many situations as possible.

Rugby Union, Rugby League, American Football, Cricket.... just about every major sport in the world now tries its best to eliminate errors, yet the biggest game in the world does the absolute minimum.

I can't give you what should happen, other than we have some extremely well paid people running the game (and refereeing it!), and they should all get their heads together to make things better.

Are referees worse now these days? I have to say that I have never known a run of games like the past couple of years when every weekend the main topic of conversation has been the standard of refereeing . That can't be right surely?

We buy the best players in the world to play in the Premiership... so why not pay the best referees in the world to come here and officiate?

Too many of the current Premiership referees have too easy a life earning big bucks with little accountability. Even Graham Poll is now vocalising his concerns about the standard of referees and how they have all become complacent.

At the every minimum, the absolute minimum... all the referees should meet once a week to discuss issues and ensure that consistency comes into the game. Surely that's not too much to ask for?

If they can't improve, I would suggest that the Premiership consider taking charge of the officiating.

You can't let a billion pound industry be determined by nobheads like Attwell and Walton.

 

[es1]

and if wrong, an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposition from where the incident took place.

And that's the main problem I see, you can't award an indirect free kick where no offence has been committed.

Let's take an example:

Kompany goes down on the edge of our own area going for a 50/50 header with a Liverpool attacker, the referee thinks the Liverpool player led with the elbow and awards a direct free kick to City.
Liverpool appeal it and it goes to the 5th official. The TV replay shows the arm didn't make contact and the City captain has in fact only clashed foreheads with the Liverpool player and happens to have come off worse, so not a foul.

In the example above, and given the restart policy you've outlined, Liverpool end up with an indirect free kick on the edge of our penalty area which really doesn't fit given that no foul has occurred.

Hopefully you can see that it's not an easy thing to solve overnight, the laws of the game need to be changed an awful lot from how they stand now to allow for replays.

no, i think you've misunderstood/i've not made myself clear!

as the challenge was correct, play would be restarted in the appropriate manner (be it direct/indirect free kick or throw in)

-- Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:48 pm --

so to make it clearer...

step 1) there's an appeal to a decision

step 2) ref aknowledges the appeal and stops play immediately, regardless of where the ball is/the situation of the game

step 3) either the ref or a 5th official reviews the incident

step 4) the ref does not change the decision that was made in open play and play restarts with an indirect free kick to the team who did not make the challenge from where the incident occured

or

the ref changes his decision based on the available evidence (awards red/yellow cards where necessary) and restarts play in the appropriate manner

If video technology for non-goal line related incidents was introduced, i'd expect it to be along these lines

obviously there is a grey area/loophole here where a manager in the final few minutes with his team winning by 1 goal could use a challenge when the opposition is approaching goal, this would break up play etc - not sure how you'd get around this however

 

[Dirty Harry]

I have been to a few refs meetings/seminars and i have spoken to Howard Webb, Martin Atkinsond and Mike Riley. They would like nothing more than to be able to face the press afterwards and explain their decisions. However, their hands are tied by the FA who will not allow them to do so.

Webb apologised to Martin O'Neil after giving a penalty to Everton and said from his angle it looked like Cattermole had caught Osman. I have spoken to a few Sunderland season ticket holders who were at the game and not one of them thought, at the time, that it was not a penalty. However Webb is crucified for this mistake? Until the replay only a handful of people thought it was not a penalty.

As for last night, if the ref had given a penalty against us for a similar hand ball to Skrtels we would all be up in arms about it. If it happened in one of my games i certainly would not have given it. With regards to the penalty, i would have sent off Skrtel but i can understand why he did not. Yaya was not exactly central and bearing down on goal and this may have affected his judgement. With regards to Barry, the 2nd yellow on its own was probably not a yellow but in the 15 minutes prior to this he had committed 4 other fouls, so it was probably an accumulation of fouls that led to this.

Hiya Richard and thanks for coming on to put your view across, but here's the problem for me, and it's one of consistency, Boyata was given a straight red against Arsenal in a similar position (although further out and the other side) and it was accepted as a red card offence straight away by the vast majority and for me it was the correct decision, yet last night nothing apart from the penalty was given.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryxgv3EMI-o&feature=related[/youtube]

except by the letter of the law Clattenburg was wrong as Hart had the ball therefore it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Fair point Joe although I suppose it could be argued that that is something we cannot know as Hart never had to deal with the prospect of Chamakh bearing down on him, but in any case that would support the case for last nights 'none red/yellow card' even more in our favour, I just can't comprehend or think of any reasonable grounds given other incidents why nothing was given card-wise.

 

[richardtheref]

I have been to a few refs meetings/seminars and i have spoken to Howard Webb, Martin Atkinsond and Mike Riley. They would like nothing more than to be able to face the press afterwards and explain their decisions. However, their hands are tied by the FA who will not allow them to do so.

Webb apologised to Martin O'Neil after giving a penalty to Everton and said from his angle it looked like Cattermole had caught Osman. I have spoken to a few Sunderland season ticket holders who were at the game and not one of them thought, at the time, that it was not a penalty. However Webb is crucified for this mistake? Until the replay only a handful of people thought it was not a penalty.

As for last night, if the ref had given a penalty against us for a similar hand ball to Skrtels we would all be up in arms about it. If it happened in one of my games i certainly would not have given it. With regards to the penalty, i would have sent off Skrtel but i can understand why he did not. Yaya was not exactly central and bearing down on goal and this may have affected his judgement. With regards to Barry, the 2nd yellow on its own was probably not a yellow but in the 15 minutes prior to this he had committed 4 other fouls, so it was probably an accumulation of fouls that led to this.

Hiya Richard and thanks for coming on to put your view across, but here's the problem for me, and it's one of consistency, Boyata was given a straight red against Arsenal in a similar position (although further out and the other side) and it was accepted as a red card offence straight away by the vast majority and for me it was the correct decision, yet last night nothing apart from the penalty was given.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryxgv3EMI-o&feature=related[/youtube]

except by the letter of the law Clattenburg was wrong as Hart had the ball therefore it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity.

As i have said i would have sent of Skrtel. cannot remember the Boyota clearly but can remember being at the game and saying to my mate "he will be off for that". Problem is you are never going to get consistency between the 20 full time refs and the 90 or so assistants as they are all individuals and they will all have differing views of the same incident. All you can ask is that each individual is consistent and this is probably were the problem lies. Last night Barry's second yellow was probably for persistent foul play yet Adam must have committed at least as many fouls without receiving one yellow, he was the same at Annfield in November if you remember.

I think the FA should maybe look at the 20 full time Premiership refs and maybe expand this to 50. also make the assistants full time pros. At the start of the season give them all the same amount of matches and judge them from there. What would then happen would be the same as in local levels where the better refs get promoted and the poorer ones demoted. So if your assessment marks were high you would be more likley to get the Cup Finals or high prestige matches, nominated for European/Int'l games etc. If you were in the "relegation zone" then you may loose your full time status at the end of the season and be replaced by the top refs from the Championship/Football League. These refs have made it to the top of the ladder and are very rarely demoted until they retire.

After all isn't most football about ups and downs?

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Hiya Richard and thanks for coming on to put your view across, but here's the problem for me, and it's one of consistency, Boyata was given a straight red against Arsenal in a similar position (although further out and the other side) and it was accepted as a red card offence straight away by the vast majority and for me it was the correct decision, yet last night nothing apart from the penalty was given.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryxgv3EMI-o&feature=related[/youtube]

except by the letter of the law Clattenburg was wrong as Hart had the ball therefore it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Fair point Joe although I suppose it could be argued that that is something we cannot know as Hart never had to deal with the prospect of Chamakh bearing down on him, but in any case that would support the case for last nights 'none red/yellow card' even more in our favour, I just can't comprehend or think of any reasonable grounds given other incidents why nothing was given card-wise.

I'd done my basic referees course a couple months before and watching it back felt that Chamakh kicked the ball towards Hart in a way that Boyata didn't influence because he hadn't made contact yet and to me Chamakh panicked and lost the ball before Boyata made contact.

To me you have to ask if they'd both stayed on their feet would Chamakh have had a clear goalscoring opportunity, and to me he wouldn't, for one Boyata was still closing him down and he wasn't even in the box when the incident took place.

 

[es1]

except by the letter of the law Clattenburg was wrong as Hart had the ball therefore it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Fair point Joe although I suppose it could be argued that that is something we cannot know as Hart never had to deal with the prospect of Chamakh bearing down on him, but in any case that would support the case for last nights 'none red/yellow card' even more in our favour, I just can't comprehend or think of any reasonable grounds given other incidents why nothing was given card-wise.

I'd done my basic referees course a couple months before and watching it back felt that Chamakh kicked the ball towards Hart in a way that Boyata didn't influence because he hadn't made contact yet and to me Chamakh panicked and lost the ball before Boyata made contact.

To me you have to ask if they'd both stayed on their feet would Chamakh have had a clear goalscoring opportunity, and to me he wouldn't, for one Boyata was still closing him down and he wasn't even in the box when the incident took place.

I'm a ref, i said it at the time i'd send him off and i stand by that

i think its a clear goalscoring opportunity and therefore a red...but herein lies the probelm with refs! say we were 2 prem refs, had two similar incidents we could both handle them completely differently based on our own judgement!

 

[Dirty Harry]

Cheers Richard, I know YOU said you would have sent Skrtel off but was more hoping you may be able to shed some light as to the reasons why Mike Jokes (sorry couldn't resist) failed to take any action card-wise, what could he possibly have seen there which would make him think an award of a penalty is sufficient but no more than that, I know you don't see through his eyes but was just after your opinion mate.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Hiya Richard and thanks for coming on to put your view across, but here's the problem for me, and it's one of consistency, Boyata was given a straight red against Arsenal in a similar position (although further out and the other side) and it was accepted as a red card offence straight away by the vast majority and for me it was the correct decision, yet last night nothing apart from the penalty was given.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryxgv3EMI-o&feature=related[/youtube]

except by the letter of the law Clattenburg was wrong as Hart had the ball therefore it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity.

As i have said i would have sent of Skrtel. cannot remember the Boyota clearly but can remember being at the game and saying to my mate "he will be off for that". Problem is you are never going to get consistency between the 20 full time refs and the 90 or so assistants as they are all individuals and they will all have differing views of the same incident. All you can ask is that each individual is consistent and this is probably were the problem lies. Last night Barry's second yellow was probably for persistent foul play yet Adam must have committed at least as many fouls without receiving one yellow, he was the same at Annfield in November if you remember.

I think the FA should maybe look at the 20 full time Premiership refs and maybe expand this to 50. also make the assistants full time pros. At the start of the season give them all the same amount of matches and judge them from there. What would then happen would be the same as in local levels where the better refs get promoted and the poorer ones demoted. So if your assessment marks were high you would be more likley to get the Cup Finals or high prestige matches, nominated for European/Int'l games etc. If you were in the "relegation zone" then you may loose your full time status at the end of the season and be replaced by the top refs from the Championship/Football League. These refs have made it to the top of the ladder and are very rarely demoted until they retire.

After all isn't most football about ups and downs?

they do do assessments and mark the refs but the problem is its all behind closed doors whereas we should get to see them and have the refs explain their decisions.

Also the prem refs are the cherry picked top refs in the game, a) there aren't enough refs b) the standard usually gets worse as you go down the leagues.

Refereeing is really tough and they'll make mistakes, but it is open to interpretation. I wouldn't have sent Boyata off but I would have given 2 penalties against Skrtel and booked him twice with all his fouling of Dzeko alone but I'd have also sent Barry off, probably earlier than Jones did.

That being said if I heard an inkling of a swear word they'd be in the book, the FA bangs on about respect to referees yet they f and blind like mad and it doesn't help when Howard Webb is caught on camera moments before booking Ferdinand for dissent telling Rio to "fuck off".

It's just a joke, and it's all the FA's doing, they try to protect referees in the wrong way and it just makes youngsters(like myself) who join the process disillusioned very quickly.

 

[es1]

Cheers Richard, I know YOU said you would have sent Skrtel off but was more hoping you may be able to shed some light as to the reasons why Mike Jokes (sorry couldn't resist) failed to take any action card-wise, what could he possibly have seen there which would make him think an award of a penalty is sufficient but no more than that, I know you don't see through his eyes but was just after your opinion mate.

i said this at the time, a card has to be issued for the challenge, whatever colour was down to the refs judgement but a card had to be shown, words fail me as to why none was given - completely baffled by it!

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Fair point Joe although I suppose it could be argued that that is something we cannot know as Hart never had to deal with the prospect of Chamakh bearing down on him, but in any case that would support the case for last nights 'none red/yellow card' even more in our favour, I just can't comprehend or think of any reasonable grounds given other incidents why nothing was given card-wise.

I'd done my basic referees course a couple months before and watching it back felt that Chamakh kicked the ball towards Hart in a way that Boyata didn't influence because he hadn't made contact yet and to me Chamakh panicked and lost the ball before Boyata made contact.

To me you have to ask if they'd both stayed on their feet would Chamakh have had a clear goalscoring opportunity, and to me he wouldn't, for one Boyata was still closing him down and he wasn't even in the box when the incident took place.

I'm a ref, i said it at the time i'd send him off and i stand by that

i think its a clear goalscoring opportunity and therefore a red...but herein lies the probelm with refs! say we were 2 prem refs, had two similar incidents we could both handle them completely differently based on our own judgement!

The only reason I'd send him off is if I was at an angle that I couldn't see Chamakh's touch before the tackle.

Even then, I'd get it rescinded and hold my hands up and admit that in my mind I'd made a mistake.

I don't see how Chamakh can have a shot if he's kicked the ball to Hart before the tackle, you can argue Boyata influenced him but Chamakh could have kicked it straight on and gone down and I'd have been more inclined to give it.