Reform 2025 Limited new name same business

ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
Haven't watched the extended version but in the original one, the woman repeated a version of the baseless 'Great Replacement' conspiracy theory, according to which Muslim women are having more children who will eventually take over here and impose Shariah law on the rest of us when they grow up. The term 'Great Replacement' was originally coined by the French scholar Renaud Camus in 2011. The British author Bat Ye'or also published a book called Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis in 2005 which argued that Muslims are deliberately working to replace white Europeans through immigration and high birthrates in order to broaden the territory of a putative Caliphate.

Unfortunately, I haven't got all day and so will have to make this brief, but in actuality Muslim women born in European countries are doing precisely what demographers predict, namely, having fewer children. Fertility rates for Muslim women born in Europe are declining quickly and heading toward rates for non-Muslims.

For example, a Pew Research Forum study projects that that the percentage of Muslims in Europe will grow from 6 percent in 2010 to 8 percent in 2030. The countries with the highest concentrations of Muslims will be France and Belgium, each with just over 10 percent. So we are far from the false demographic projections that are sometimes cited to provoke panic. For more on this and some additional statistics, see this little book:

View attachment 121725

Moving on, the ‘creeping Shariah law’ claim dates back to some misreported comments made by the previous Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams. Shariah law, in fact, has no traction in UK law. None whatsoever. Those Shariah courts that do exist are designed to help mediate between and counsel those who might, for example, be thinking of divorcing or getting one. But any decisions made are advisory and not binding in English law.

Additionally, although Islamists (like affiliates of the now proscribed organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir) and Salafi-Jihadists (like ISIS) favour a Caliphate and the introduction of a harsh version of Shariah, and Islamism is a problem in the UK (if you read the publications of former Islamists Ed Husain and Maajid Nawaz), their views are not representative of all Muslims. Surveys with carefully calibrated questions in fact reveal that many (if not most) Muslims favour democracy, and that most are culturally conservative but politically liberal. For a review of the data which shows this, see especially, Charles Kurzman's The Missing Martyrs: Why There Are So Few Muslim Terrorists. There is a section in it in which the author specifically addresses the advocacy of Shariah among Muslims that some surveys claim to have uncovered. It turns out that it's not that simple and a lot depends on how the questions in the survey are framed. However, the relevant passage is too long for me to type out.

Will leave it there. Hope this post helps in some way. For more on Shariah, John Esposito & Natana J DeLong Bas's Shariah: What Everyone Needs To Know is excellent on this aspect of Islam. Also have high hopes that this publication will also prove to be illuminating when it arrives (just ordered it today):

View attachment 121727
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Great post
 
urban genie said:
confusing American politics I reckon, which is a lot of the problems we are having with the state of our politics here, the influx of thier batshit bullshit through social media and insistance of populism over policy has turn our once sensible democratic process into a side show of shitness from every party
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Afuckingmen to that
 
metalblue said:
Reform are polling more than the Lib Dem’s and greens. You may not like their policies but to call them fringe is absurd.
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It's part of a wider global phenomenon: Trump, Bolsonaro, Milei, Modi, Orban, Meloni, Wilders et al.

Julia Ebner (who I have already mentioned on here - an academic who infiltrates Islamist and far-right groups both online and in person) is very good at explaining how far-right thinking has bled into mainstream politics. Her books are fascinating and genuine page-turners. This one is just out in paperback:

1717914875700.png

Another person who I have just discovered is Cas Mudde. Looks like he might be worth keeping tabs on too:

lab.cccb.org

Cas Mudde: “The far right is normalised” | CCCB LAB

We talk to the Dutch political scientist about the characteristics and strategies of today’s extreme right.
lab.cccb.org lab.cccb.org
 
stonerblue said:
Great post
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Thanks.

One thing I would like to add to is that I reckon the reason why populists like Farage get traction with voters is because there is a problem with Islamism in this country, and he taps into the Islamaphobia (or anti-Muslim bigotry if you prefer) that this - and previous acts of terrorism like the Manchester Arena bombing - have provoked, along with the grooming scandal that the likes of Yaxley-Lennon have harped on.

Just on that last subject, will briefly quote from James Fergusson's interview with Elizabeth McDonnell, the mother of one of the victims:

"McDonnell didn't think that Islam, as such, had anything to do with the creation of groomers. The men who tormented her daughter were about as godless as they came, far beyond the reach and influence of the mosques."

The reason why we know that there is a problem with Islamism is because liberal Muslims like Ed Husain, Sara Khan (who produced the report on what happened to the Batley schoolteacher), Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (author of Refusing The Veil) and Ziauddin Sardar have been telling us this for years.

For example, what still sticks in my mind from having read Husain's rather depressing latest book Among The Mosques: A Journey Through Muslim Britain is what he found on the shelves of the Islamic bookshops in those mosques, namely, publications like Sayyid Qutb's Milestones, the notorious Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb's Kitab at-Tawheed (The Book of Monotheism), books by Ibn Taymiyyah, and titles by other ideologues that Islamists and Salafi-Jihadists have found inspirational. What's particularly interesting is that Husain is fluent in Arabic, which enables him to see what others miss.

Having said this, if their tweets are anything to go by, what bothers me about Farage and other GB News presenters is that they have never once - to the best of my knowledge (and I may be wrong) - highlighted the efforts of those Muslims who are vehemently opposed to the Islamists. And the reason why they don't, as far as I can tell, is that they are deliberately attempting to get people to conflate Islamism with Islam itself.

So I'll be watching Farage and other Reform politicians closely in the days ahead to see if they keep peddling that line.

This needs to happen with regular media too. Instead of trying to obtain soundbites from provocateurs like Anjem Choudary (which has happened in the past), they should be interviewing Muslims like the ones I have already mentioned who are more representative of mainstream Islam.

For example, Mohammed Chirani is a prominent French Muslim. After the Paris attacks of 2015, he appeared on television and won the hearts of hundreds of thousands of viewers when he denounced the 'satanic pseudo-Caliphate', called for more solidarity, ostentatiously kissed his French passport, and cited the Qur'an in front of the running camera. The video quickly went viral; it was liked more than 140,000 times and shared close to 60,000 times.

There's one last thing. It has frequently been asserted that some citizens of our fair society have failed to assimilate. But then couldn't that also be said about Reform politicians like Farage, Tice and Habib?

1717917956753.png
 
urban genie said:
centrists by all means but not left.

Economically their belief in the private sector aligns with right wing politics as does their free market philosophy and belief in a smaller state

socially you could say they lean more left than right
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What’s the alternative of the private sector? The state owns everything?

They want to invest more in the public sector which is the very opposite of a) small state and b) Labour and tories who are looking at £18bn of cuts (allegedly)
 
metalblue said:
What’s the alternative of the private sector? The state owns everything?

They want to invest more in the public sector which is the very opposite of a) small state and b) Labour and tories who are looking at £18bn of cuts (allegedly)
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Precisely. We will have to wait until the manifestos come out but it wouldn’t surprise me if the LibDems end up appearing economically the furthest left of the three just because:

a) they want to actually invest in infrastructure
b) they are fundamentally pro-welfare and improving social mobility even if this means “big state” (see Davey’s social care plan), this just probably wouldn’t be extended to nationalising things like energy
c) when the economic policies of the two main parties is so similar it’s easier and more popular to go to the left of them than the right

The LibDems are middle of the pack on the idea of big state. Strong welfare but make use of and promote free markets where it’s sensible to do so. They are ultimately agnostic on the public vs. private debate and do what is best based on the specific situation.

I would argue in some respects Reform are also left wing in some of their policies but they are a bit of a philosophical mess, but they could come out (at least giving the appearance of) looking economically further left than Labour even if socially they are way right.
 
ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
Thanks.

One thing I would like to add to is that I reckon the reason why populists like Farage get traction with voters is because there is a problem with Islamism in this country, and he taps into the Islamaphobia (or anti-Muslim bigotry if you prefer) that this - and previous acts of terrorism like the Manchester Arena bombing - have provoked, along with the grooming scandal that the likes of Yaxley-Lennon have harped on.

Just on that last subject, will briefly quote from James Fergusson's interview with Elizabeth McDonnell, the mother of one of the victims:

"McDonnell didn't think that Islam, as such, had anything to do with the creation of groomers. The men who tormented her daughter were about as godless as they came, far beyond the reach and influence of the mosques."

The reason why we know that there is a problem with Islamism is because liberal Muslims like Ed Husain, Sara Khan (who produced the report on what happened to the Batley schoolteacher), Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (author of Refusing The Veil) and Ziauddin Sardar have been telling us this for years.

For example, what still sticks in my mind from having read Husain's rather depressing latest book Among The Mosques: A Journey Through Muslim Britain is what he found on the shelves of the Islamic bookshops in those mosques, namely, publications like Sayyid Qutb's Milestones, the notorious Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb's Kitab at-Tawheed (The Book of Monotheism), books by Ibn Taymiyyah, and titles by other ideologues that Islamists and Salafi-Jihadists have found inspirational. What's particularly interesting is that Husain is fluent in Arabic, which enables him to see what others miss.

Having said this, if their tweets are anything to go by, what bothers me about Farage and other GB News presenters is that they have never once - to the best of my knowledge (and I may be wrong) - highlighted the efforts of those Muslims who are vehemently opposed to the Islamists. And the reason why they don't, as far as I can tell, is that they are deliberately attempting to get people to conflate Islamism with Islam itself.

So I'll be watching Farage and other Reform politicians closely in the days ahead to see if they keep peddling that line.

This needs to happen with regular media too. Instead of trying to obtain soundbites from provocateurs like Anjem Choudary (which has happened in the past), they should be interviewing Muslims like the ones I have already mentioned who are more representative of mainstream Islam.

For example, Mohammed Chirani is a prominent French Muslim. After the Paris attacks of 2015, he appeared on television and won the hearts of hundreds of thousands of viewers when he denounced the 'satanic pseudo-Caliphate', called for more solidarity, ostentatiously kissed his French passport, and cited the Qur'an in front of the running camera. The video quickly went viral; it was liked more than 140,000 times and shared close to 60,000 times.

There's one last thing. It has frequently been asserted that some citizens of our fair society have failed to assimilate. But then couldn't that also be said about Reform politicians like Farage, Tice and Habib?

View attachment 121806
Click to expand...

Your post reminds me of the psychology of war. To get man to fight man you have to make people believe they aren’t the same as you - not just not like you but dehumanise them.

Some are obvious, they pray to a different god, their skin colour isn’t the same. Other less so, one of the lines peddled for the Germans in WW2 was they didn’t play cricket. Russia fighting their brothers in Ukraine? No problem, they’re nazis.

It’s the same tactic when it comes to immigration.
 
I was posting this on the Tommy Robinson thread but correctly got pulled ,
There’s absolutely no place for this far right bull shit or left, if they’d of had their way I’d of been gone two years ago.
I’ve been treated from doctors and nurses from every continent in the world . Seriously I don’t normally get worked up on here but reading some of stuff reform pump out is upsetting. I get everyone is entitled to a view but this my view.
I wouldn’t wish cancer on no one but … the immigration bile I read is disgraceful,
Put them in my shoes and let a radiologist from Egypt, an oncologist from India consultant from China , receptionist from Armenia not enter these this great country we have.

Emotional rant sorry
Up the blues.
 
A57 the snake said:
I was posting this on the Tommy Robinson thread but correctly got pulled ,
There’s absolutely no place for this far right bull shit or left, if they’d of had their way I’d of been gone two years ago.
I’ve been treated from doctors and nurses from every continent in the world . Seriously I don’t normally get worked up on here but reading some of stuff reform pump out is upsetting. I get everyone is entitled to a view but this my view.
I wouldn’t wish cancer on no one but … the immigration bile I read is disgraceful,
Put them in my shoes and let a radiologist from Egypt, an oncologist from India consultant from China , receptionist from Armenia not enter these this great country we have.

Emotional rant sorry
Up the blues.
Click to expand...
The reality should wake people up.

Stay safe, my friend. We care.
 
metalblue said:
Your post reminds me of the psychology of war. To get man to fight man you have to make people believe they aren’t the same as you - not just not like you but dehumanise them.

Some are obvious, they pray to a different god, their skin colour isn’t the same. Other less so, one of the lines peddled for the Germans in WW2 was they didn’t play cricket. Russia fighting their brothers in Ukraine? No problem, they’re nazis.

It’s the same tactic when it comes to immigration.
Click to expand...

The fact that we can be made to turn on others so easily tells me that our brains are hardwired for tribalistic living. We still think like that. Which means that, neurologically, we're not well-adapted for the challenges that we face in this century, like global warming.

We're a territorial species too. For us, it's all about defending sacred spaces and territory (like, say, the Cenotaph or Regent Street in London with its seasonal decorations) from contamination.

For me, that's what the rise of the radical right is all about. The populists that front their parties are adept at appealing to this side of us.

But populism of this sort isn't just a right-wing phenomenon. Left-wing populists like Galloway have done the same thing successfully too. And Islamists. Their desire to establish a pure Caliphate and the demonization of the kafir expresses the same tendency.

The picture quality isn't that good but this documentary charts the stages we pass through on the way to becoming willing to exterminate 'the Other':

 
A57 the snake said:
I was posting this on the Tommy Robinson thread but correctly got pulled ,
There’s absolutely no place for this far right bull shit or left, if they’d of had their way I’d of been gone two years ago.
I’ve been treated from doctors and nurses from every continent in the world . Seriously I don’t normally get worked up on here but reading some of stuff reform pump out is upsetting. I get everyone is entitled to a view but this my view.
I wouldn’t wish cancer on no one but … the immigration bile I read is disgraceful,
Put them in my shoes and let a radiologist from Egypt, an oncologist from India consultant from China , receptionist from Armenia not enter these this great country we have.

Emotional rant sorry
Up the blues.
Click to expand...

Wishing you the best mate.
 
An issue of the right is that there are two main philosophies.

1. Small state and low taxes. This means leaving as much as possible to the private sector, quite possibly including the NHS*. Minimal regulation, as these people believe that having high standards is just so much red tape and bureaucracy that stifles business. (These are the lineal descendants of 19th-century railway directors who fought the imposition of automatic brakes on passenger trains on the grounds it was all too costly.) Not that bothered about race or immigration, to be honest, especially if it keeps wages down. Not really bothered about gays or transpeople either, but sometimes pretend to object for the sake of seeming 'conservative.' Strong tendency towards libertarianism, with less state involvement in what might be called social matters. Arguably these people are not conservatives in the old sense, but radicals.

2. High welfare state, with lots of nice benefits for 'us'. Not for those horrid foreign johnnies. Investment in infrastructure desired - call it 'levelling up'. Not massively bothered about tax, and would be happy for the rich (not them) to pay more. Prefers low or zero immigration and not bothered about the practical consequences. Wants the NHS or something broadly similar, but no real plan to manage it without the input of foreigners. Would probably favour training more of 'our own' in fairness. Suspicious of foreigners at best and hostile to international organisations and even treaties. Would ideally like an autarkic UK where we magically grow all our own food and make everything we need. (Unspoken) often xenophobic or downright racist but always say: 'I'm not a racist, but...' Haters of change in society, and indeed change of any sort. Nostalgic for a past golden age - usually when they were kids with no responsibility.

How you accommodate both these visions in one party is hard to imagine. Johnson managed it for a time, with Brexit as glue, but that glue no longer sticks and certainly does not hold together such divergent desires.


*Anyone who thinks replacing the NHS with a private sector will be cheaper is kidding themselves. It will be dearer, maybe much dearer, but you will pay less income tax/NI but more on private insurance and direct payments. Attractive to the very rich.
 
ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
The fact that we can be made to turn on others so easily tells me that our brains are hardwired for tribalistic living. We still think like that. Which means that, neurologically, we're not well-adapted for the challenges that we face in this century, like global warming.

We're a territorial species too. For us, it's all about defending sacred spaces and territory (like, say, the Cenotaph or Regent Street in London with its seasonal decorations) from contamination.

For me, that's what the rise of the radical right is all about. The populists that front their parties are adept at appealing to this side of us.

But populism of this sort isn't just a right-wing phenomenon. Left-wing populists like Galloway have done the same thing successfully too. And Islamists. Their desire to establish a pure Caliphate and the demonization of the kafir expresses the same tendency.

The picture quality isn't that good but this documentary charts the stages we pass through on the way to becoming willing to exterminate 'the Other':

Click to expand...


That was a great watch. It goes to show we just need to think you’re different…
 
BrianW said:
An issue of the right is that there are two main philosophies.

1. Small state and low taxes. This means leaving as much as possible to the private sector, quite possibly including the NHS*. Minimal regulation, as these people believe that having high standards is just so much red tape and bureaucracy that stifles business. (These are the lineal descendants of 19th-century railway directors who fought the imposition of automatic brakes on passenger trains on the grounds it was all too costly.) Not that bothered about race or immigration, to be honest, especially if it keeps wages down. Not really bothered about gays or transpeople either, but sometimes pretend to object for the sake of seeming 'conservative.' Strong tendency towards libertarianism, with less state involvement in what might be called social matters. Arguably these people are not conservatives in the old sense, but radicals.

2. High welfare state, with lots of nice benefits for 'us'. Not for those horrid foreign johnnies. Investment in infrastructure desired - call it 'levelling up'. Not massively bothered about tax, and would be happy for the rich (not them) to pay more. Prefers low or zero immigration and not bothered about the practical consequences. Wants the NHS or something broadly similar, but no real plan to manage it without the input of foreigners. Would probably favour training more of 'our own' in fairness. Suspicious of foreigners at best and hostile to international organisations and even treaties. Would ideally like an autarkic UK where we magically grow all our own food and make everything we need. (Unspoken) often xenophobic or downright racist but always say: 'I'm not a racist, but...' Haters of change in society, and indeed change of any sort. Nostalgic for a past golden age - usually when they were kids with no responsibility.

How you accommodate both these visions in one party is hard to imagine. Johnson managed it for a time, with Brexit as glue, but that glue no longer sticks and certainly does not hold together such divergent desires.


*Anyone who thinks replacing the NHS with a private sector will be cheaper is kidding themselves. It will be dearer, maybe much dearer, but you will pay less income tax/NI but more on private insurance and direct payments. Attractive to the very rich.
Click to expand...

I think it’s far more nuanced than this but fair play for giving it a stab.

To just pick up on one of your observations about resistance to chance and wanting to harp back to a golden era - this is exactly the same rap sheet that could be thrown at unions.

Some will find this uncomfortable but the primary difference to the majority on the left or right is not on where we want to go, but how to get there.
 
A57 the snake said:
I was posting this on the Tommy Robinson thread but correctly got pulled ,
There’s absolutely no place for this far right bull shit or left, if they’d of had their way I’d of been gone two years ago.
I’ve been treated from doctors and nurses from every continent in the world . Seriously I don’t normally get worked up on here but reading some of stuff reform pump out is upsetting. I get everyone is entitled to a view but this my view.
I wouldn’t wish cancer on no one but … the immigration bile I read is disgraceful,
Put them in my shoes and let a radiologist from Egypt, an oncologist from India consultant from China , receptionist from Armenia not enter these this great country we have.

Emotional rant sorry
Up the blues.
Click to expand...
Well said mate. We should be thankful, not disdainful, that we live in a vibrant, multicultural country. Wishing you good health.
 
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