Reform 2025 Limited new name same business

The British public are pretty consistent in their views across different surveys and experiments, if you track the answer to two specific questions:
  • Are some races/ethnic groups born more intelligent that others? - just under 20% tend to respond yes
  • Are some races/ethnic groups born more hardworking than others? - around 45% tend to respond yes
Experiments that change nothing other than the name on an application (from an obviously British name) tend to yield anywhere between a 40% to 20% reduction in success rates (be it jobs, housing applications etc).

So I don't think it's particularly controversial to say we have a material issue with both biological and cultural racism; but in that frankly we're similar to most ethnically diverse countries and it's certainly not a new thing. It does however mean that our ability to have meaningful conversations about important things like integration vs assimilation already has some challenges baked in, but we've coped to date.

But once you add in a significant populist party using a bad faith argument to drive traction and then you compound this with the incumbent government ineptly amplifying their argument then it becomes pretty much impossible to have a sensible debate. Unless someone can move the national debate off this territory over the next couple of years we'll go into the next election with a dysfunctional debate in a dysfunctional environment at a point in history where things are challenging enough without stabbing ourselves in both eyes.
 
moomba said:
Many are, theres no doubt about that. Many have been taken in by constant messaging that immigration and immigrants are responsible for bad things happening in the country. Many I would guess feel let down by major parties and are looking for an alternative, any alternative.

One thing for sure, for those supporters of reform that arent racist and xenophobic. They dont have any problems overlooking racism and xenophobia (not to mention dishonesty) displayed by their party leaders and representatives. And I wonder what that says about them.
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Guilt by association is no form of argument, if not Farage where else are they going to go?

There are a large number of folk who feel in an unfocused, not easily articulable way, that there is something very wrong with the country they love, that the very idea of who we are as a nation is being eroded and therefore their own identity is under threat, whether this threat is real or imagined is immaterial, it has traction, but the left abandons these people to Robinson and Farage by lumping them all together as racists.

Have at it if it make you feel better.

But don't kid yourself, if the left continues to talk to itself and condemns those outside its bubble, if it does not articulate a compelling narrative that addresses these people's concerns, it'll end up handing that fucker the keys to No 10.

Will the left do it?

No, it'll continue to do what you've just done. It's the reason they continue to lose.
 
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The perfect fumble said:
Guilt by association is no form of argument, if not Farage where else are they going to go?

There are a large number of folk who feel in an unfocused, not easily articulable way, that there is something very wrong with the country they love, that the very idea of who we are as a nation is being eroded and therefore their own identity is under threat, whether this threat is real or imagined is immaterial, it has traction, but the left abandons these people to Robinson and Farage by lumping them all together as racists.

Have at it, if it make you feel better.

But don't kid yourself, if the left continues to talk to itself and condemns those outside it's bubble, if it does not bring forth a compelling narrative that addresses these people's concerns, it'll end up handing that fucker the keys to No 10.

Will the left do it?

No, it'll continue to do what you've just done. It's the reason they continue to lose.
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Or people could just be honest with themselves and admit they're planning to vote Reform because that's the government they want in charge.

Despite the lack of good policy, despite the racism, despite the xenophobia.

No-one is forcing them, it's what they want. I can understand why it's easier for some to blame the Tories or Labour, than say they stand for what Nigel Farage stands for. But they're not really being honest with themselves.

As for "left wing" this, "left wing" that. It's really weird. Own up to your own beliefs and stop blaming an imaginary enemy for driving you to the side of racists and xenophobes.
 
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moomba said:
Or people could just be honest with themselves and admit they're planning to vote Reform because that's the government they want in charge.

Despite the lack of good policy, despite the racism, despite the xenophobia.

No-one is forcing them, it's what they want. I can understand why it's easier for some to blame the Tories or Labour, than say they stand for what Nigel Farage stands for. But they're not really being honest with themselves.

As for "left wing" this, "left wing" that. It's really weird. Own up to your own beliefs and stop blaming an imaginary enemy for driving you to the side of racists and xenophobes.
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Have you noticed how when someone disagrees with the "correct" view, you, and a fair few in here, immediately play the man and not the ball.

You stated...
They dont have any problems overlooking racism and xenophobia (not to mention dishonesty) displayed by their party leaders and representatives. And I wonder what that says about them.
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The left doesn't have a problem overlooking its misogyny. I wonder what that says about them.

Don't bother replying, I'll not if you do, it's a pointless exercise when pejorative is all you do.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Have you noticed how when someone disagrees with the "correct" view, you, and a fair few in here, immediately play the man and not the ball.

You stated...


The left doesn't have a problem overlooking its misogyny. I wonder what that says about them.

Don't bother replying, I'll not if you do, it's a pointless exercise when pejorative is all you do.
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You must be very thin skinned if you think that's playing the man. Particularly given some of your posts in recent weeks.

FWIW, I'm not "the left" (obsession alert) so I dont have to overlook your perceptions of its misogyny. I vote for a candidate or party that meets my standards and expectations. If they dont they dont get my vote.

That may change next election, if needed I will vote to keep Reform out. But it'll just be a vote. I certainly wont be here day telling everyone their shit doesn't stink when it most probably does
 
The perfect fumble said:
Guilt by association is no form of argument, if not Farage where else are they going to go?

There are a large number of folk who feel in an unfocused, not easily articulable way, that there is something very wrong with the country they love, that the very idea of who we are as a nation is being eroded and therefore their own identity is under threat, whether this threat is real or imagined is immaterial, it has traction, but the left abandons these people to Robinson and Farage by lumping them all together as racists.

Have at it, if it make you feel better.

But don't kid yourself, if the left continues to talk to itself and condemns those outside its bubble, if it does not bring forth a compelling narrative that addresses these people's concerns, it'll end up handing that fucker the keys to No 10.

Will the left do it?

No, it'll continue to do what you've just done. It's the reason they continue to lose.
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Weren't you on the left a couple of years ago?
 
blueinsa said:
He still is.

I wish posters would read what he is actually saying and why he is saying it instead of just attacking him.
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I'm not attacking him, I don't understand what he's saying half the time. There is a hidden meaning to everything.
 
hcblue95 said:
I'm not attacking him, I don't understand what he's saying half the time. There is a hidden meaning to everything.
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His message is clear and very easy to understand but it seems many would rather just tell him what he is thinking.

He has to fit inside a convenient box for them to feel better about themselves.
 
hcblue95 said:
See I don't really know what you mean by this. Too many isms where? From the left?
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Yes.

Entryism has many faces, the left has had so much bolted onto it by bad faith actors as to be unrecognisable from even ten years ago.

Very little coming out of the left makes much sense now. To be a left winger today is to be a master of doublethink, and it's riddled with the fetish of victimhood and identity politics. It has not only become divorced from the people it is supposed to represent, it despises them, it is unhinged from reality, in some cases material reality.

It has become censorious, doctrinal and menacing and as a consequence it has allowed the hard right to occupy the ground it has abandoned.

It has also become the preserve of the well heeled, not very bright but over educated, twenty something middle class, never a good sign for a workers movement.

In short, I didn't leave the left, it left me.
 
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