Reform UK Party Limited Company

[TinFoilHat]

Mr Farage, you claim politics has become "worse, five years in after you left it" and, you "won't give into the mob"

Do you accept that speeches by yourself and other far right wing preachers of hate have led to you to that conclusion?

 

[Rascal]

Give all your things away to other people who didn't work for it sounds a bit like communism, with genius ideas like that no wonder the rest of Europe is veering towards nationalism.

How to unpick that nonsense is a challenge. Plus i have had a beer today and my head is not really on it.

Lets start with your assumption that people give everything away to make a Communist society. That has to be one of the most idiotic statements I have ever read, read some Lenin and come back to me when you are you educated.

Orwell said of Nationalism

"identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests"

He went on to say

By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power.

the
Orwell is prescient here as he indentifies that Nationalism is all about power, the power to shape society in a way that expresses nationalistic desires.

Nationalism even gets dismissed by minorities is our society

Muslims believe that Muhammad condemned nationalism in many ahadith, stating "Whoever fights under a banner of foolishness [tribalism], supports tribalism, or gets angry for the sake of tribalism, he will die in a state of ignorance". When asked about nationalism he answered by saying "Leave it, it is rotten

Invoking Godwins law here is a quote from Adolf

"Certainly a government needs power, it needs strength. It must, I might almost say, with brutal ruthlessness press through the ideas which it has recognized to be right, trusting to the actual authority of its strength in the State"


why though are we facing a rise in nationalism?

It is multi faceted, there are the scare stories from the right, there are the conspiracy theories like the great replacement theory and the klaus schawbs plans for the world to become one global entity. This scares people as Zen said people indentify with place and rightly so.

However in my opinion, Nationalism is poison, I am a patriot, but i do not subscribe to nationalistic ideas of overt power because i am a democrat.

 

[mexico1970]

How to unpick that nonsense is a challenge. Plus i have had a beer today and my head is not really on it.

Lets start with your assumption that people give everything away to make a Communist society. That has to be one of the most idiotic statements I have ever read, read some Lenin and come back to me when you are you educated.

Orwell said of Nationalism

"identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests"

He went on to say

By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power.

the
Orwell is prescient here as he indentifies that Nationalism is all about power, the power to shape society in a way that expresses nationalistic desires.

Nationalism even gets dismissed by minorities is our society

Muslims believe that Muhammad condemned nationalism in many ahadith, stating "Whoever fights under a banner of foolishness [tribalism], supports tribalism, or gets angry for the sake of tribalism, he will die in a state of ignorance". When asked about nationalism he answered by saying "Leave it, it is rotten

Invoking Godwins law here is a quote from Adolf

"Certainly a government needs power, it needs strength. It must, I might almost say, with brutal ruthlessness press through the ideas which it has recognized to be right, trusting to the actual authority of its strength in the State"


why though are we facing a rise in nationalism?

It is multi faceted, there are the scare stories from the right, there are the conspiracy theories like the great replacement theory and the klaus schawbs plans for the world to become one global entity. This scares people as Zen said people indentify with place and rightly so.

However in my opinion, Nationalism is poison, I am a patriot, but i do not subscribe to nationalistic ideas of overt power because i am a democrat.

To be fair mate I said "sounds like communism" I didn't say is communism. You can't honestly have a good faith debate with a room full of book wavers who believe the Tories were/are fascists. Some of the posters on here refuse to believe that the European youth are turning right and they also believed that Brexit was never going to happen, it's their sneering arrogance that got us in this mess in the first place.

You can argue that you don't like it but it doesn't mean you are right it means that your opinion is different, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to have it.

 

[laserblue]

 

[The blue phantom]

View attachment 122110

He's currently on LBC with Ferrari. Calling himself a moderate and wants to be the leader of the opposition with a centre right party.

Doesn't even call himself Rightwing. Unfuckinbelievable.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

That's really interesting, but does the video posted by your good self show how easily we are influenced by the perception of power? Going back to base level, would tribal leaders actually do the hard wiring because of deference to the leader. Umberto Eco in his tract on fascism says that "disagreement is treason" how powerful do you think that is as a notion?

I do think the overwhelming majority have a love of their particular space, I love where I live now, but I am also proud to be a Salfordian. I do not feel a particular love of inanimate objects like the Cenotaph, I respect them of course but I do not feel a need to defend them as they are inanimate.

Zen I respect you more than any poster on here, you educate us so much but having read Peter Oborne's book "the fate of Abraham" I am not sure you are correct here. I would like further insight mate


The picture quality isn't that good but this documentary charts the stages we pass through on the way to becoming willing to exterminate 'the Other':

scary

Bit short of time but the answer to your first question is 'Yes'. We are susceptible to being influenced by tyrannical/authoritarian leaders.

Have had my eye on that Oborne book for a while. Thanks for the heads up about it.

The suggestion that there can be left-wing populism is, if I remember rightly, to be found in this book (which is very good):



Although he doesn't mention him, Hughes's description of someone with a narcissistic personality disorder fits Trump to a tee.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

He's currently on LBC with Ferrari. Calling himself a moderate and wants to be the leader of the opposition with a centre right party.

Doesn't even call himself Rightwing. Unfuckinbelievable.

A mate of mine thinks that he is trying to seem moderate so as to appeal to those who are fairly moderate (or at least regard themselves as such) but credulous, and therefore susceptible to his views on immigration, asylum seekers, Muslims, and national security.

It's a message that amounts to something of a mantra in the right-wing press. Viz Comic's estimable cartoonist Davey Jones nails it here:



This book is also good when it comes to describing how far-right thinking has bled into mainstream politics:

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

That was a great watch. It goes to show we just need to think you’re different…

When I was still teaching, it's the video that I made most use of in the classroom (or parts of it - didn't show the most graphic bits to younger pupils). It never failed to have an impact.

What I like about it is that it's apolitical and shows how susceptible all of us are to being manipulated by charismatic demagogues. The book is excellent too:

 

[BrianW]

There are loads of credulous people out there who want to believe there are simple answers to complex questions. The only snag is, that there aren't. Any action you take has consequences, many of which will always be unforeseen. Brexit is the perfect example.

The other thing is, that lower-educated and lower-intelligence types are often more motivated by emotion than reason. We all have a bit of that, in fairness, but some of us have it in spades. This is why people get punched on a Friday night for nothing much, because the puncher's emotions have been heightened by beer consumption and have overridden any concern that they might end up before the beak - or, in tragic cases, before a high court judge. It also explains why flag shagging and devotion to the royals are so common. It's emotion, not reason. Try watching 'The Triumph of the Will' and you'll see mass emotion in action. Then go away and think about where it led, and ask yourself how many of those young people were still alive and well in 1946.

 

[bluethrunthru]