Yeah, the Champions League is so bent it's untrue, the rules to it get changed to the benefit of clubs that used to be good so often it makes a joke of the whole thing.Couldn't agree more and would love to like it more than once.
Especially the bit about the very damaging synergy between the way CL seeding and prize money is rigged and the FFP. On one hand, UEFA gives more money for free (history) to some clubs and on the other hand they don't allow some revenue from clubs. It is as if you were playing some card games and some players around the table are publicly given better hands/cards.
I appreciate the fact that you identified the PL as a special case due to its high TV rights. It allows even bottom clubs to spend decent (or absurd) money. Now, look at the continental leagues and see that Ajax is on its own galaxy in Eredivisie now, PSG on its own in France (thank you FFP to have destroyed Monaco project and now Marseille is already in trouble with FFP only 4 years after being bought).
You can only develop your revenue for FFP by having a big brand you can then sell to sponsors and fanbase (marketing/merchandising). To do that you need to invest money massively and efficiently. Liverpool is very fortunate because they already had the brand and their spending was supernaturally efficient (almost all players performing way better than expected and excellent fitness level bar the AOC/Keita injuries). In that sense, Liverpool can be lauded for their excellent business but they can't be a model since it can not be replicated elsewhere.
I don't think you understand most City fans opinions on this, we don't want to be accepted or be part of any 'cabal', it's got nothing to do with what we've been allowed or not allowed to spend, we want these selfish greedy protectionist scum destroyed, we want FFP removed completely so that other teams fans can enjoy what we've had.The G14 clubs were founded by those who had been historically most successful in Europe. As of today, not much has changed. Nearly all of them have won a European trophy since its inception, some with multiples. That reinforces their membership credentials totally. I’m not sure where I’ve said that as long as LFC are okay, fuck all other teams? Of course my primary concern is my own team just like yours is, but let’s have this right, given that you’ve spent more money than any other club in the last decade, your spending power has hardly been curtailed that much. Personally I couldn’t give two fucks what you spend or don’t spend. We’ve gone about it a different way, it’s horses for courses. What I don’t understand is that a lot of your fans seem to hate this ‘cabal’ but are desperate for them to accept your club. That’s by the by though.
I agree with you about the fact that FFP was brought in due to Chelsea in the first place. They needed a measure to stop this from happening. City and PSG came after Chelsea and were hit by FFP but still managed to grow. Now, it is almost impossible to do a Chelsea/PSG/City. Milan AC learnt it.
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I may have misunderstood you here but its worth noting that FFP wasn't brought in as a result of Chelsea's rise, Abramovic, along with Berlusconi, was actually one of the ringleaders in removing the focus on debt and making it about blocking investment and competition.
Obviously that may be what you were saying and I just misunderstood.
Reading that I don't think you actually disagree with anything I said except where you say 'namely that the auditors would have looked at their outgoings and seen clearly that they were living beyond the money that came into the football club from elsewhere. That’s when the red flags are going up'.
The red flags would never have gone up as the auditors wouldn't have cared as it was all debt loaded on to the club, as you say, those situations probably shouldn't have happened but FFP wouldn't have stopped it.
Also, the mandate to spend within means isn't a brilliant concept in the least and I suspect we'll see that over here over the next few years. I suspect that once United have got back in to the Champions League then the top four here will be cemented for the foreseeable future, that's entirely down to FFP. Nobody will be able to come anywhere close to competing financially with teams that are Champions League on a regular basis and FFP will only cement that further.
The only way it's a brilliant concept is if debt free investment is allowed, this will stimulate the football economy and create a basis of level competition, rather than just going back to the same few teams winning the league over and over every year which is what the concept of the Premier League and Champions League are designed to do.
I completely agree that all club owners are dodgy to some extent and that Liverpool aren't the only club to tap up players or have absolute scum bag owners (Bayern Munich immediately spring to mind on both counts there), I just used them as an example as you are obviously most familiar with them. I do however think JWH is the most damaging import to European football in quite some time. He has managed to pretty quickly infiltrate UEFA and has elevated both on and off the pitch cheating to a sickening level. Hopefully he won't get the permanently fixed European Super League that he's working on though.
I have to say though if you think City are going to win the Champions League any time soon you clearly haven't seen the performances of the referees we've had in games against any of the history boys. You must have at least seen two of them, they were probably the two most bent ones at least so you may be forgiven for forgetting some of the others!
Milan has one of the biggest trophy haul but they failed to capitalize on their success and develop the brand. Coupled with the Serie A decline (average TV rights), Milan is nothing but a name nowadays. Of course, they had their influence in FFP being relaxed for new owners (just after City and PSG were punished for the same thing haha) but they are now in the muds with FFP slowing their comeback. Inter played smarter and even them had a tough time under FFP. They could only do some loans with option to buy (that they wouldn't use) under their FFP agreement. And this is with Suning giving them a good help and selling their academy players for a fortune.I think you’re way off with the Milan comparison, they’re a fucking massive club. Been in two finals and one win this century, only Madrid have more wins ever obviously. They’re not what they were at the moment but to suggest that they’ve fallen out of European favour is a little fanciful. They can’t buy their way back but as a founding member of the G14, they’ll always have a certain stature in the power game.
I don’t agree that only massive investment can help you crash the party. Spurs have spent a fraction of those around them and have been CL regulars, getting to a final as well. Are they a little short for an extended say in the greatness area? Probably but money alone doesn’t solve that. I’ve said on here before that the very best teams have all the stars aligned on and off the pitch. Pep is a great fit for City, Klopp is for us. Nearly everything they’ve touched in recent years has struck gold. You could give Spurs an extra £100m in their budget and they wouldn’t bridge that gap overnight. The best teams have managers who make good players into great players. That’s just as valid a route as spending mega bucks to cover every position in the squad.
I’m guessing you’re a PSG fan so I’d like to ask you this if I may? I’ve followed Tuchel’s career and I rate him but how much do you think he’s improved the biggest names in his squad? I’m not looking for a row or saying he’s shit, far from it. Don’t get to watch PSG much so I don’t really know how he’s developed them himself if you get me?
Rest bite?So it benefits the clubs who have higher income because a one year rest bite for ffp doesn’t give much leeway for the average teams.
danielwood5
I was always under the impression that FFP was initially brought to stop Chelsea or clubs like Chelsea from doing what they were doing. FFP was supposed to be like an European DNCG (the french financial policeman in football). DNCG allows you to spend whatever you want as long as the owner can provide assurance he is backing up the spending.
My understanding is Chelsea made their transition from big spenders to footballers farm (to sustain their lifestyle) and voted in favour of the current version of FFP we know. It would secure their place among the top clubs in PL after they had accomplished their goal of winning the CL and expanding their brand through their initial investment.
Maybe you are right and i'm mistaken.
You say FFP wouldn’t have stopped it but if there’d been sanctions applied from the off, it certainly wouldn’t have deteriorated notably further. Transfer bans or points deducted, they’re the punishments the clubs fear the most. But it wasn’t applicable back then so it is what it is.
It’s worth pointing out that the money that’s gone into the PL in the last ten years is in the billions. If that sort of money collectively shared round can’t provide the basis to live within your means, nothing can. That’s before you even get to the other revenue streams. It’s not like clubs outside the top six have their hands tied behind the back. The current Leicester side is a great example of that.
I’ll swerve the Henry discussion as, and I say this as a big critic of him, I don’t think we’re going to agree. And as for the CL, I don’t think you had a bad ref where you beat Madrid in their own backyard with a late penalty. It was exactly the same when we did Barca 4-0 at our gaff. The ref gave them nothing they didn’t deserve. You beat Real fair and square too. European refs can be twats at times, but that’s par for the course. Always has been, always will be unfortunately. I still think you’ll win it though.
danielwood5
I was always under the impression that FFP was initially brought to stop Chelsea or clubs like Chelsea from doing what they were doing. FFP was supposed to be like an European DNCG (the french financial policeman in football). DNCG allows you to spend whatever you want as long as the owner can provide assurance he is backing up the spending.
My understanding is Chelsea made their transition from big spenders to footballers farm (to sustain their lifestyle) and voted in favour of the current version of FFP we know. It would secure their place among the top clubs in PL after they had accomplished their goal of winning the CL and expanding their brand through their initial investment.
Maybe you are right and i'm mistaken.