Religion

BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Presumably *you* have a point in mind when making the post. Whatever your point is, it's entirely unclear. You might as well post a "Baby Shark" video in response.
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Just putting two things next to each other, and you are free to draw any conclusions you want to or not. Rushdie may or may not agree with those conclusions.
 
arfurclue said:
Just putting two things next to each other, and you are free to draw any conclusions you want to or not. Rushdie may or may not agree with those conclusions.
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Here you go.


That's got about as much relevance to this topic as your post sans explanation.
 
denislawsbackheel said:
%s of an ever diminishing overall total.
All would be dwarfed by those with no faith.
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According to wiki : Secular /non-religious/agnostic/atheist accounts for 15.58% of the world’s population. So matches with unaffiliated in the graph. Religion not dwarfed by no faith at all. And the religious make up and views of the world is apparently very different to Bluemoon if this thread is anything to go by.

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Here you go.


That's got about as much relevance to this topic as your post sans explanation.
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It doesn’t intrigue you at all that, according to Rushdie and the graph, seemingly only 16% of the world’s population doesn’t follow a way of medieval unreason And that this is projected to decrease. Along with the increasing modernization of weapons, then I guess your freedom could be in grave danger. Might want to build yourself a Space Ark or something, whilst you still can…;)
 
arfurclue said:
It doesn’t intrigue you at all that, according to Rushdie and the graph, seemingly only 16% of the world’s population doesn’t follow a way of medieval unreason And that this is projected to decrease. Along with the increasing modernization of weapons, then I guess your freedom could be in grave danger. Might want to build yourself a Space Ark or something, whilst you still can…;)
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Whereas religious beliefs are thought to be in decline according to other researchers, e.g., https://blog.oup.com/2020/12/why-is-religion-suddenly-declining/.

Regardless - I fail to see the attraction of religion. Belief in some sort of afterlife and a supreme being rewarding those who are worthy? This exact sort of belief has recurred time after time - in Rome, in Greece, in Mesopotamia, numerous times in South America, in North America and so on and so forth. All such beliefs contradictory in substance and all without a shred of evidence. Humans fear death and wish desperately for some sort of life after death - ergo religion.

Frequently religious belief devolves into zealotry. Unbelievers are a threat - and so must be expunged. And thus, time after time, now and in the past, "Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with 'modern' weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms." - I've quoted "modern" because the term is relative. A modern weapon in Roman times is a well-forged sword.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Whereas religious beliefs are thought to be in decline according to other researchers, e.g., https://blog.oup.com/2020/12/why-is-religion-suddenly-declining/.

Regardless - I fail to see the attraction of religion. Belief in some sort of afterlife and a supreme being rewarding those who are worthy? This exact sort of belief has recurred time after time - in Rome, in Greece, in Mesopotamia, numerous times in South America, in North America and so on and so forth. All such beliefs contradictory in substance and all without a shred of evidence. Humans fear death and wish desperately for some sort of life after death - ergo religion.
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Just contradicted yourself there fella. Not that I’m advocating a belief in any sort of afterlife but you can see why it is comforting to people. I’m no expert but am not aware of an atheist or secular standpoint that holds out the hope of being rewarded for a life time of struggle or mehness so religion would have to be the way to go
 
journolud said:
Just contradicted yourself there fella. Not that I’m advocating a belief in any sort of afterlife but you can see why it is comforting to people. I’m no expert but am not aware of an atheist or secular standpoint that holds out the hope of being rewarded for a life time of struggle or mehness so religion would have to be the way to go
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Huh? You make no sense whatsoever.

I'm an atheist. I'm not amoral. I believe that I have this life to live and then I'm gone. I want to live a peaceful life and hope to promote happiness in others. If I'm wrong - and I should have been praying to Zeus or carving out hearts for sacrifice as did the Aztecs or whatever - then so be it - in that eventuality I'll be going straight to hell.
 
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Huh? You make no sense whatsoever.

I'm an atheist. I'm not amoral. I believe that I have this life to live and then I'm gone. I want to live a peaceful life and hope to promote happiness in others. If I'm wrong - and I should have been praying to Zeus or carving out hearts for sacrifice as did the Aztecs or whatever - then so be it.
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We’re agreed that the best aim for this life is to live it well and do no harm. We’re also agreed that we’re not pinning everything on an afterlife. I’m merely saying that I understand the attraction of that belief for people and why they are drawn to religion because of it. Sorry if my wording was too obtuse for you
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Whereas religious beliefs are thought to be in decline according to other researchers, e.g., https://blog.oup.com/2020/12/why-is-religion-suddenly-declining/.

Regardless - I fail to see the attraction of religion. Belief in some sort of afterlife and a supreme being rewarding those who are worthy? This exact sort of belief has recurred time after time - in Rome, in Greece, in Mesopotamia, numerous times in South America, in North America and so on and so forth. All such beliefs contradictory in substance and all without a shred of evidence. Humans fear death and wish desperately for some sort of life after death - ergo religion.

Frequently religious belief devolves into zealotry. Unbelievers are a threat - and so must be expunged. And thus, time after time, now and in the past, "Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with 'modern' weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms." - I've quoted "modern" because the term is relative. A modern weapon in Roman times is a well-forged sword.
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It’s almost as though you limit religion to a definition of it that you don’t like and then say that you fail to find it attractive. Sure, go for it. But is there any room for others who wish to explore the religious/spiritual in their own way, even beyond your limited definitions?
 
arfurclue said:
It’s almost as though you limit religion to a definition of it that you don’t like and then say that you fail to find it attractive. Sure, go for it. But is there any room for others who wish to explore the religious/spiritual in their own way, even beyond your limited definitions?
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A fervent belief without basis in fact is I suppose tolerable - except that such belief tends to be both sacred and fragile. Those who oppose the belief are likely to be viewed as heretics and then violence against the unbelievers ensues - history is replete with examples.

I'll turn your question around - why is it that you need to believe as true in something without any proof whatsoever? I'm all for posing the existence of God as a hypothetical proposition in need of evidence to support. And in that context, go ahead and seek such evidence.
 
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
A fervent belief without basis in fact is I suppose tolerable - except that such belief tends to be both sacred and fragile. Those who oppose the belief are likely to be viewed as heretics and then violence against the unbelievers ensues - history is replete with examples.

I'll turn your question around - why is it that you need to believe in something without any proof whatsoever that it's true? I'm all for posing the existence of God as a hypothetical proposition in need of evidence to support. And in that context, go ahead and seek such evidence.
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It’s not limited to mental beliefs for me - more opening to something beyond intellectualism. From that state of being ‘some’ of what is written in spiritual/ texts fits, other stuff doesn’t. But we live in a world that is seemingly very mind dominant in its ways and thus it’s forms of education. Now if you challenge that mind dominance you can be seen as heretical by BOTH those that would call themselves ‘religious’ and the ‘non-religious.’ Might even get called medieval, if you’re lucky.

Edit : Maybe this will give you an idea/ example of what I am on about. Or maybe not.

But let’s say that at times I feel stressed. May try and find a way to get rid of that stress. Or may just notice that I have tension around the heart area. With this, there might coming a softening, and the tension dissolves. And i experience more harmony. In this way, for arguments sake, let’s associate tension with ‘closed heart’ and harmony with ‘open heart.’ Now I might explore and come to discover that if I hold onto certain thoughts in my mind I get to hold onto stress and not be able to open to harmony, even if I believe that thought to be ‘right.’ So eventually it might come to the point where I have a choice between whether I prioritize being right or wrong in the mind, or whether I have open or closed heart. More and more, I would rather the harmony than just being right in the mind - and the stress can have an intensity that can bring suffering. Others are free to choose differently - great, go for it. But if someone is trying to force, eg, a definition ofreligion on me, which would would mean that I have to stay stressed to agree with them…then, no thanks.
 
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arfurclue said:
It’s not limited to mental beliefs for me - more opening to something beyond intellectualism
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If you're going to believe in something without any evidence whatsoever then I can't reason with you.

Wny? Because you've already given yourself over to belief without recourse to reason.

In this context, whatever belief you have, contrary to evidence is unquestionable - the earth is flat, dinosaurs roamed our planet 3000 years ago, the Gods demand that you cut out human hearts for sacrifice, 1 + 1 = 3 ... whatever. All of above beliefs are incontrovertibly true if the only evidence you demand is belief regardless of evidence; in fact everything is true as you like and everything else is false.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
If you're going to believe in something without any evidence whatsoever then I can't reason with you.

Wny? Because you've already given yourself over to belief without recourse to reason.

In this context, whatever belief you have, contrary to evidence is unquestionable - the earth is flat, dinosaurs roamed our planet 3000 years ago, the Gods demand that you cut out human hearts for sacrifice, 1 + 1 = 3 ... whatever. All of above beliefs are incontrovertibly true if the only evidence you demand is belief regardless of evidence; in fact everything is true as you like and everything else is false.
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Have added to the post since. You can choose to read it or not, to agree with it or not. But this that you’ve written has little to do with what I wrote.
 
arfurclue said:
Have added to the post since. You can choose to read it or not, to agree with it or not. But this that you’ve written has little to do with what I wrote.
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I've read your addition - and I'll say that my brother feels exactly as you do.

Meditation - although I don't intentionally practice it (but read on) - is very relaxing and soothing. Meditation can reinforce calm, relaxing ideas and make worries far less troublesome. Although I don't intentionally meditate - at times I wake up in the middle of the night and then to help get back to sleep I think about things I'd like to occur - it's very calming.

I'm all for meditation and "wishful thinking" as a means to relieve stress. I don't, however, see why this evolves into the belief in God. If your belief in God is entirely passive - that is you don't feel the urge to convince others around you that God exists - and you don't cut off all communication with others who don't believe in God (as my brother has) - then I suppose that your belief is a helpful fantasy - fantastic because there's no evidence that it's true.

Whereas my wishful thinking that calms me and helps me sleep is just that - wishful thinking which I've no expectation whatsoever might eventualize or is true.
 
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