Rodrigo Hernandez - Atletico confirm deal - p192

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Fast Forward To The Past said:
I think that was more out of necessity. And they all turned out to be a liability anyway.
And that is the whole point I'm trying to make...
One would obviously expect a player like Gundugan to be a defensive liabilty but in a posession based team that expection gets quite literally turned on it's head.
Not just in theory but in practise. As we have seen.
We don't have a club full of ball players who can succesfully play there. Not even close... You could make a case for KDB and that's about it.
As for "just knocking the ball around"...
I do hope you watched De Jong vs Spurs.
If the fact that we missed out didn't make you cry a little bit inside than I don't know what to say...
The Position is about vision, comfort and speed of tought.
You are constantly at the root of a domino effect that either ends in a succesfull attack or an opposition counter. It requires a feel for the game that is very rare.
That's why we don't get much weaker when Gundo plays there instead of Fern.
Gundo can't fix problems the way Fernandinho does, but he is slightly better at preventing them because he is better at the subtle art of dictating the game. (when on form...)
Things even out...
I don't have anything against players with top defensive qualities. Quite the contrary!
My point is that if you make defensive prowess your FIRST priority you are more likely to end up with a player that causes a lot more problems than his defensive skills can fix.
Like Kante at Chelsea.
There is a reason he doesn't get trusted in Jorginho's position.
And it's not because Sarri is as "stupid" or "stubbern" as the media and pundits would like you to believe.
Click to expand...

What can Gundogan do, that Bernardo Silva or David Silva couldn't quickly learn ? And KDB ? Foden couldn't learn it ?

How about them getting between our central defenders & stopping goals ? There's the bit they will struggle with, as Gundogan would.

I don't agree that those kind of deep passing players solve defensive problems.

I think they can be effective, if the whole team is functioning almost perfectly, so that they don't need to. But if the shit hits the fan, they are useless. When the top 'passing' teams get dicked, that is the area which crumbles along with the back 4.

If you have a player there who can fill both roles, you are better than a similar opponent who doesn't.
 
Fast Forward To The Past said:
I think that was more out of necessity. And they all turned out to be a liability anyway.
And that is the whole point I'm trying to make...
One would obviously expect a player like Gundugan to be a defensive liabilty but in a posession based team that expection gets quite literally turned on it's head.
Not just in theory but in practise. As we have seen.
We don't have a club full of ball players who can succesfully play there. Not even close... You could make a case for KDB and that's about it.
As for "just knocking the ball around"...
I do hope you watched De Jong vs Spurs.
If the fact that we missed out didn't make you cry a little bit inside than I don't know what to say...
The Position is about vision, comfort and speed of tought.
You are constantly at the root of a domino effect that either ends in a succesfull attack or an opposition counter. It requires a feel for the game that is very rare.
That's why we don't get much weaker when Gundo plays there instead of Fern.
Gundo can't fix problems the way Fernandinho does, but he is slightly better at preventing them because he is better at the subtle art of dictating the game. (when on form...)
Things even out...
I don't have anything against players with top defensive qualities. Quite the contrary!
My point is that if you make defensive prowess your FIRST priority you are more likely to end up with a player that causes a lot more problems than his defensive skills can fix.
Like Kante at Chelsea.
There is a reason he doesn't get trusted in Jorginho's position.
And it's not because Sarri is as "stupid" or "stubbern" as the media and pundits would like you to believe.
Click to expand...
I've been saying this for the better part of 2 years. But you put it so succinctly. Kudos :)
 
Neville Kneville said:
What can Gundogan do, that Bernardo Silva or David Silva couldn't quickly learn ? And KDB ? Foden couldn't learn it ?

How about them getting between our central defenders & stopping goals ? There's the bit they will struggle with, as Gundogan would.

I don't agree that those kind of deep passing players solve defensive problems.

I think they can be effective, if the whole team is functioning almost perfectly, so that they don't need to. But if the shit hits the fan, they are useless. When the top 'passing' teams get dicked, that is the area which crumbles along with the back 4.

If you have a player there who can fill both roles, you are better than a similar opponent who doesn't.
Click to expand...
Again, no one has ALL of both qualities, or NONE of either. Generally players have variants of both. Gundogan isn't a nonentity defensively, he simply isn't as good as Dihno. Dihno also is simply not as good in possession as Gundogan. So it's not an either or for either one of them.

Also Gundogan is actually better at positioning. Dihno is better at recovery and closing down. There a variety of skills inherent at the position, and each player has some that are better than the other. For example

Dihno is better at Tackling, heading, closing speed, lateral movement and Athletism.

Gundogan is better at positioning, passing, ball control, tight space maneuvering, decision making, double team, etc.

Yet this is not to suggest one or the other is useless at everything the other is better at.
 
Neville Kneville said:
What can Gundogan do, that Bernardo Silva or David Silva couldn't quickly learn ? And KDB ? Foden couldn't learn it ?

How about them getting between our central defenders & stopping goals ? There's the bit they will struggle with, as Gundogan would.

I don't agree that those kind of deep passing players solve defensive problems.

I think they can be effective, if the whole team is functioning almost perfectly, so that they don't need to. But if the shit hits the fan, they are useless. When the top 'passing' teams get dicked, that is the area which crumbles along with the back 4.

If you have a player there who can fill both roles, you are better than a similar opponent who doesn't.
Click to expand...

Broadly speaking. KDB can allready do what Gundogan does. But he's probably the most allround midfielder in the world so there's that.
The Silva's have a very different skillset. They are magical in the pockets but much more limited from deep positions. That should be very obvious when you watch our games.
Foden? Who knows? He's very young.
Anyways...
You might not agree that deep passing players solve defensive problems, but I'm sure you must have noticed that non-passing players CAUSE a bucketload of defensive problems in a Pep team.
So bearing that in mind...
I want the best defensive player we can find BUT if he does not have a playmaking skillset that is at least equal or close to Gundogan than he'll be a liability for us. No matter how good he is at defending one on one.
In other words... You start with a playmaker and you hope to get as much defensive skills as possible as part of the deal.
The other way around has been tried and it simply doesn't work.
All IMO offcoarse...

BTW... Your view of a playmaker as a player who simply passes the ball around is plain silly and you know it.
There is no way you can watch De Jong and think "This is a player who just passes the ball around. I'm glad we didn't sign him." No way.
 
Fast Forward To The Past said:
Broadly speaking. KDB can allready do what Gundogan does. But he's probably the most allround midfielder in the world so there's that.
The Silva's have a very different skillset. They are magical in the pockets but much more limited from deep positions. That should be very obvious when you watch our games.
Foden? Who knows? He's very young.
Anyways...
You might not agree that deep passing players solve defensive problems, but I'm sure you must have noticed that non-passing players CAUSE a bucketload of defensive problems in a Pep team.
So bearing that in mind...
I want the best defensive player we can find BUT if he does not have a playmaking skillset that is at least equal or close to Gundogan than he'll be a liability for us. No matter how good he is at defending one on one.
In other words... You start with a playmaker and you hope to get as much defensive skills as possible as part of the deal.
The other way around has been tried and it simply doesn't work.
All IMO offcoarse...

BTW... Your view of a playmaker as a player who simply passes the ball around is plain silly and you know it.
There is no way you can watch De Jong and think "This is a player who just passes the ball around. I'm glad we didn't sign him." No way.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why you keep mentioning DeJong. He looks potentially a good defender in the future, miles ahead of Gundogan or Jorginho.

Gundogan, yes, I think either Silva could quickly learn to do anything he does on the ball in that position. He is ahead, of course, because he's played there a lot & they haven't. The bit they would find hardest, is the defending & reading the game, but they are both smarter than him so..

I have never suggested a player there who can't pass. Fernandinho imo is an absolute fucking genius at pass & move from that position.

We should try to replace him with as close to as possible, similar.
 
Dax777 said:
Again, no one has ALL of both qualities, or NONE of either. Generally players have variants of both. Gundogan isn't a nonentity defensively, he simply isn't as good as Dihno. Dihno also is simply not as good in possession as Gundogan. So it's not an either or for either one of them.

Also Gundogan is actually better at positioning. Dihno is better at recovery and closing down. There a variety of skills inherent at the position, and each player has some that are better than the other. For example

Dihno is better at Tackling, heading, closing speed, lateral movement and Athletism.

Gundogan is better at positioning, passing, ball control, tight space maneuvering, decision making, double team, etc.

Yet this is not to suggest one or the other is useless at everything the other is better at.
Click to expand...

Fernandinho is a genius at positioning. An abslolute gold plated genius.

It's just that his positioning also includes covering the fullbacks & centre backs, which Gundogan can't even try to do, so doesn't.
 
Neville Kneville said:
Fernandinho is a genius at positioning. An abslolute gold plated genius.

It's just that his positioning also includes covering the fullbacks & centre backs, which Gundogan can't even try to do, so doesn't.
Click to expand...
He isn't as good as Gundogan.
 
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