Russian invasion of Ukraine

Let's be honest, western leaders and politicians couldn't give a shit about Ukraine.
Never enough kit delivered to actually stop Russia let alone push them out.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Let's be honest, western leaders and politicians couldn't give a shit about Ukraine.
Never enough kit delivered to actually stop Russia let alone push them out.
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It's fucking depressing and we will all pay the price for it in the next 10 years once putin rebuilds and comes for more.

Ukraine should ignore any calls to stop drone attacks on the refineries, it's ok for the yanks to complain about oil prices whilst Ukraine is getting flattened. They never change only in it for the money and weapons testing. Whilst professing how much they love democracy and freedom.
 
Scottyboi said:
Whilst professing how much they love democracy and freedom.
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They love the US hegemony and world dominance.
I don't know if it is ok to say that, people call me "troll", they hate me...
But it's so obvious, I don't know why western public cannot see it.
 
Alvin-blue-qhd said:
They love the US hegemony and world dominance.
I don't know if it is ok to say that, people call me "troll", they hate me...
But it's so obvious, I don't know why western public cannot see it.
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I think the Western Public (large amounts) do see it Alvin. We, in the west for all our faults are quite self critical, it's why you will often see us march in the hundreds of thousands on our own streets about foreign policies we do not like our governments partaking in. The most obvious one was Iraq.

What's frustrating in this conflict for a lot us of, is, it's quite difficult to see how we are being blamed for wanting to support Ukraine (I believe this a general viewpoint to be the case by lots of people in East Asia, Africa & of course Russia) when most of us want to see an aspiring new democracy on our doorstep have the right to exist and a right to free and fair elections (like we do). Why do so few people in your part of the world not listen to Putin's own words when he repeatedly refuses to recognise Ukraine (and other ex soviet states) as real countries and has constantly been the aggressor over the last 20 years. Why are you not as cynical of Russian foreign policy as you are of western foreign policy?
 
b6_brum said:
it's quite difficult to see how we are being blamed for wanting to support Ukraine (I believe this a general viewpoint to be the case by lots of people in East Asia, Africa & of course Russia) when most of us want to see an aspiring new democracy on our doorstep have the right to exist and a right to free and fair elections (like we do).
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We don't blame the western public.
We hate the United States using "color revolution" to overthrow other governments. We hate their propaganda.
 
Alvin-blue-qhd said:
We don't blame the western public.
We hate the United States using "color revolution" to overthrow other governments. We hate their propaganda.
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Do you believe that the citizens of Ukraine have the right to decide what future they want also? Do you think that there is a possibility (bearing in mind we have never seen people climbing over walls to escape western liberal democracies) that many look west to the freedoms that civilians have they don't in Russia & would rather choose that way of life? Is Russian propaganda a thing, or does it only exist in the western world?
 
Elbow beards said:
It's all very depressing and will only get worse if that orange **** gets back in.
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Yes and no. The current failure of the US to provide timely support purely in service of its own domestic politics is yet another reminder that Ukraine and Europe as a whole cannot rely on the US. This failure by the US also means that Ukraine and Europe will cease to listen to the US with its redlines and caveats about what Ukraine can and cannot do. If the US can’t stump up the weapons and resources then why is any nation going to listen to them? Trump or any other Republican President getting elected just hastens the process that has already begun.

The only reliable guarantee of European security is Europe itself and the more the US falls short, then European nations will fill that gap. France and Poland making common ground in the face of the Russian threat is a step in that direction.

DeGaulle distrusted the US commitment back in the sixties which is one of the reasons France why is the only truly independent nuclear power in Europe. I also think there is an increasing likelihood that countries like France, Poland and other Eastern European countries will eventually put visible boots on the ground in Ukraine. Germany will have the vapours but its role will be weapon production.
 
b6_brum said:
Do you believe that the citizens of Ukraine have the right to decide what future they want also? Do you think that there is a possibility (bearing in mind we have never seen people climbing over walls to escape western liberal democracies) that many look west to the freedoms that civilians have they don't in Russia & would rather choose that way of life? Is Russian propaganda a thing, or does it only exist in the western world?
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It's difficult to give a complete explanation. I have to use translation software because it's beyond my English ability. I think I should use a direct way to express our views.

We support Russia to some extent because we believe that Russia cannot fall. If the United States can kill Russia in this way, it can kill any country that is not willing to serve the US interests in the same way.

I know you definitely don't like this answer, but this answer is sincere, I didn't lie to you.

As for whether the Ukrainian people have the right to elect their own government, the color revolution method used by the United States is full of fake news and fictional history. It is a dirty method that fundamentally harms the democratic rights of the Ukrainian people.

Yes, I am Chinese, and I can feel that the United States has been trying to use the same means to undermine my country. Not only me, many people can now see through the tricks of the United States. Even those Chinese who were most "pro-America" in the past have changed their views after seeing the slander of the United States on Xinjiang's anti-terrorism.
 
Alvin-blue-qhd said:
It's difficult to give a complete explanation. I have to use translation software because it's beyond my English ability. I think I should use a direct way to express our views.

We support Russia to some extent because we believe that Russia cannot fall. If the United States can kill Russia in this way, it can kill any country that is not willing to serve the US interests in the same way.

I know you definitely don't like this answer, but this answer is sincere, I didn't lie to you.

As for whether the Ukrainian people have the right to elect their own government, the color revolution method used by the United States is full of fake news and fictional history. It is a dirty method that fundamentally harms the democratic rights of the Ukrainian people.

Yes, I am Chinese, and I can feel that the United States has been trying to use the same means to undermine my country. Not only me, many people can now see through the tricks of the United States. Even those Chinese who were most "pro-America" in the past have changed their views after seeing the slander of the United States on Xinjiang's anti-terrorism.
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Hi mate, I appreciate the language barrier and am grateful for attempting to point your point of view from your part of the world.

But what I would say to you is the United States doesn't really view Russia as a threat. Infact, lots in the west would argue that large sections of the Republican party have been attempting to spread Russian propaganda in the western world as they enjoy indirectly taking money off the kremlin. The United States have not gone above and beyond to support Ukraine, and generally what they have provided has been sufficient to give Ukraine enough support to defend itself, not to be able to go on a serious attacks of themselves. They've even today been reported to have told Ukraine to stop attacking Russian oil refineries.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you would rather an innocent country who simply want the right to exist, lose a brutal war against a country who's leader imprisons or kills anybody that stands against him and openly states his quest to recapture what he classes as part of his empire, just because you think it's in your interest against the United States.

Once again, you appear to be missing my point about the Ukrainian people, you talk about colour revolution like it's being forced upon the Ukrainian people, do you not think they might actually want it? If the Ukrainian people didn't want to be freed from a Moscow government, do you honestly believe they'd be putting up so much resistance? Russia have sent in hundreds of thousands of troops into Ukraine land (it's not being fought on Russian land), why haven't they succeeded?

I don't understand why you criticise Western governments for foreign interference (and you are well within your rights to do so in some cases - as do we), why do you never hold the same values towards Russian or even your own governments? Can you not see a level of hypocrisy of you being guilty of what you accuse your enemies of being?
 
Alvin-blue-qhd said:
It's difficult to give a complete explanation. I have to use translation software because it's beyond my English ability. I think I should use a direct way to express our views.

We support Russia to some extent because we believe that Russia cannot fall. If the United States can kill Russia in this way, it can kill any country that is not willing to serve the US interests in the same way.

I know you definitely don't like this answer, but this answer is sincere, I didn't lie to you.

As for whether the Ukrainian people have the right to elect their own government, the color revolution method used by the United States is full of fake news and fictional history. It is a dirty method that fundamentally harms the democratic rights of the Ukrainian people.

Yes, I am Chinese, and I can feel that the United States has been trying to use the same means to undermine my country. Not only me, many people can now see through the tricks of the United States. Even those Chinese who were most "pro-America" in the past have changed their views after seeing the slander of the United States on Xinjiang's anti-terrorism.
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From your view, How is this the US killing Russia? the US didn't make Russia invade Ukraine. and as b6_brum says, certianly in convential military terms. Russia is about as much of a threat to the US as the Iraq was. IE No threat.

In conventional arms the US are set up to be able to take on the rest of the world combined, All of Europe, Russia, China, South America etc etc. they probably wouldn't win in the end but it would be close. Russia on its own just isn't a threat to them anymore economically or militarily
 
Alvin-blue-qhd said:
It's difficult to give a complete explanation. I have to use translation software because it's beyond my English ability. I think I should use a direct way to express our views.

We support Russia to some extent because we believe that Russia cannot fall. If the United States can kill Russia in this way, it can kill any country that is not willing to serve the US interests in the same way.

I know you definitely don't like this answer, but this answer is sincere, I didn't lie to you.

As for whether the Ukrainian people have the right to elect their own government, the color revolution method used by the United States is full of fake news and fictional history. It is a dirty method that fundamentally harms the democratic rights of the Ukrainian people.

Yes, I am Chinese, and I can feel that the United States has been trying to use the same means to undermine my country. Not only me, many people can now see through the tricks of the United States. Even those Chinese who were most "pro-America" in the past have changed their views after seeing the slander of the United States on Xinjiang's anti-terrorism.
Click to expand...

The world would be a better place if Russia did fall. But it would not be the US that does it; the US is not that interested in Russia. The US is interested in China, because China is a more viable opponent to its interests. This disinterest in Russia by the US is what drives Putin’s desire to make Russia relevant.

More likely, Russia will become a secondary partner to China. Of greater interest is the rise of India and its threat to China in the region, especially as China has antagonised countries like Vietnam.

The irony in all this is that there is no one to rival the US economically or militarily, but it is important that Europe regains military independence from the US. Allies, yes. Dependency, no.

Painting Ukrainian struggles for sovereignty and its desire to face west and the EU, rather than Russia as US meddling is colonial thinking on your part. Denying people the right to determine their own fate as if they have no say or agency is an example of the thinking you seek to condemn.
 
BlueAnorak said:
WTF? Seriously?
This is the Biden administration talking here!
I fucking despair I really do.
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I mean the US is buying up all of Russia’s oil from the UAE….

Damaging the supply and pushing up the price at the pump helps Trump so not really *that* surprising the Biden admin are worried.
 
b6_brum said:
Hi mate, I appreciate the language barrier and am grateful for attempting to point your point of view from your part of the world.

But what I would say to you is the United States doesn't really view Russia as a threat. Infact, lots in the west would argue that large sections of the Republican party have been attempting to spread Russian propaganda in the western world as they enjoy indirectly taking money off the kremlin. The United States have not gone above and beyond to support Ukraine, and generally what they have provided has been sufficient to give Ukraine enough support to defend itself, not to be able to go on a serious attacks of themselves. They've even today been reported to have told Ukraine to stop attacking Russian oil refineries.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you would rather an innocent country who simply want the right to exist, lose a brutal war against a country who's leader imprisons or kills anybody that stands against him and openly states his quest to recapture what he classes as part of his empire, just because you think it's in your interest against the United States.

Once again, you appear to be missing my point about the Ukrainian people, you talk about colour revolution like it's being forced upon the Ukrainian people, do you not think they might actually want it? If the Ukrainian people didn't want to be freed from a Moscow government, do you honestly believe they'd be putting up so much resistance? Russia have sent in hundreds of thousands of troops into Ukraine land (it's not being fought on Russian land), why haven't they succeeded?

I don't understand why you criticise Western governments for foreign interference (and you are well within your rights to do so in some cases - as do we), why do you never hold the same values towards Russian or even your own governments? Can you not see a level of hypocrisy of you being guilty of what you accuse your enemies of being?
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To be honest, I'm afraid it's difficult for me to explain clearly through a few posts. If put simply, my opinion is consistent with the Chinese government. The reason why the Chinese government adopts the current foreign policy is that the CPC has a set of values. It is not only influenced by Marxism from the West, but also constantly shaped in the history of the Chinese revolution. Meanwhile, because the Chinese revolution is centered around the Chinese people, it is a common historical memory of the Chinese people. Therefore, it is natural for us to have the same thinking mode as that of the CPC and the Chinese government. This is why the Chinese people will support the CPC and the Chinese government, because we are the same kind of people.

As for China's foreign policy, such as the issue of Ukraine and Palestine, the Chinese government has various white papers and official documents to elaborate on its principles and ideas. However, the content of all those official documents is relatively boring. For all Westerners, unless you are really interested and willing to engage in serious research, it is difficult to figure out what it is all about. In this process, you will also be constantly interfered by the Western media.

So, things are really hard.
 
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