Scrapping VAT and removing charitable schools - Labour policy - do you agree with it ?

[meltonblue]

One thing that surprised me was that the kids were actively encouraged to challenge the view of teachers. Something which I don’t think tends to happen in state schools that much. With opinions being examined and broken down.

Obviously it’s expected to be done in a constructive manner (so no shouting from the back with expletives), but it does break down the boundaries of challenging authority and hierarchy, which holds back many people from normal backgrounds.

I know from my own experience of dealing with very senior people in businesses, I often feel a bit of an imposter because of my background and conditioning around hierarchical structures within society which starts from school. Thankfully my son seems to have less of that baggage.

I found with grammar school, the main difference was the level of independent learning needed, it was that coupled with far getting more experience of debating and public speaking. That suits some children, not others.

You’d have the latter a bit in private schools too due to the lower teacher to pupil ratio but given it’s not selective, it’s only really beneficial if there’s a level of aptitude in the first place, which is why a few really struggled with it.

 

[meltonblue]

I did it because I felt (and my children did) that they were the schools where they would feel happiest. They were born abroad and were used to international schools and the private schools here gave them a better continuation of their education. It has seemingly worked out well for them thus far and so no regrets.

Ah I think that’s a slightly different and more nuanced position, I have friends who have done similar with their children as they wanted to do the baccalaureate.

 

[PragueBlue]

Ah I think that’s a slightly different and more nuanced position, I have friends who have done similar with their children as they wanted to do the baccalaureate.

Quite a lot of US students at the schools here that are children from the base at Memwith Hill and I suspect their parents feel the private schools give them an education that would fit in better when they return home. That and the US armed forces probably picks up the tab!

 

[threespires]

One thing that surprised me was that the kids were actively encouraged to challenge the view of teachers. Something which I don’t think tends to happen in state schools that much. With opinions being examined and broken down.

Obviously it’s expected to be done in a constructive manner (so no shouting from the back with expletives), but it does break down the boundaries of challenging authority and hierarchy, which holds back many people from normal backgrounds.

I know from my own experience of dealing with very senior people in businesses, I often feel a bit of an imposter because of my background and conditioning around hierarchical structures within society which starts from school. Thankfully my son seems to have less of that baggage.

I think that's a really good example, it's very hard to objectively measure these kinds of things but it doesn't mean they don't exist and they can have huge impacts.

My own experience sounds a bit similar to yours albeit you have managed it better, I found the further up the corporate ladder I had to operate the more challenging I found it; not intellectually but for the kind of reasons you mention. I also found it quite frustrating that I regularly dealt with people whose confidence was way in excess of their capabilities and whose progression seemed in no way meritocratic. I would often be (too) deferential but then experience what the psychologist that our CEO kept in tow would euphemistically describe as a "mercurial behaviour change". So I eventually decided I needed to do something else with my life before someone else decided it for me. Had I learnt some of those lessons you mention your son has learnt from any early age, who knows maybe I could have been more effective and would have stayed in that world.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I totally agree with it.
I’d like to see them all abolished.

 

[halfmist]

It’s personal experience but I disagree with this. I went to an all boys selective grammar school that also allowed fee paying borders that didn’t have to take the exams. Most of the people that were privately educated at primary school or paid for entry via the border route were thick as pig shit as they’d either been heavily tutored on top of their education to pass the eleven plus or just paid to bypass it and then really struggled to keep up due to the different teaching methods in those schools at secondary level. Some of them were also socially inept as they struggled to equate to anyone from a different background. I’d also add the teachers that were bad at the grammar school, although admittedly very clever, had had no teacher training or PGCE, which was a fair few of them, ditto in the private schools.

Parents choose private school because of the name of it and they’ve got the money to afford it. If their children have the aptitude and are lucky to have decent teachers (as that can happen in either) then they’ll thrive regardless and will more often end up much more rounded individuals. What they won’t have is the connections made or the influence of the name of a private or grammar school and that does open doors that it really shouldn’t.

Either way though, those people that did send their children to private school, it’s a very low percentage that choose to make proper sacrifices to their life in order to do it, as per the research I posted earlier. The sacrifices people make are more often downgrading their property in order to get into a decent catchment area for a very good state school or do something to afford to do that rather than pay thousands for private education. The vast majority that do choose private education for their children is because they can very very comfortably afford to do it and know very little of if the teaching provision is actually any good or not, particularly at primary, the importance is their child gets the name of that school and the association.

Believe me, as someone who went to a Secondary Modern School, we were cannon fodder who’s sole intention was to provide an ample supply of labour to do the jobs the private and grammar school parents didn’t want their kids to do.
Low achievement was expected and delivered.
Perhaps the Comprehensive system has moved the goal posts a little but I would take the private system over the State system any day of the week.
So what if the parents throw money at their kids in the real world it’s dog eat dog.
If a few of the kids in the private schools are thick they will still end up with a better overall education than had they gone to a State School as they will be pushed to perform to the best of their ability so the parents can say they have given them the best overall start in life..
They will still end up with better jobs than had they been in the State system

 

[meltonblue]

Believe me, as someone who went to a Secondary Modern School, we were cannon fodder who’s sole intention was to provide an ample supply of labour to do the jobs the private and grammar school parents didn’t want their kids to do.
Low achievement was expected and delivered.
Perhaps the Comprehensive system has moved the goal posts a little but I would take the private system over the State system any day of the week.
So what if the parents throw money at their kids in the real world it’s dog eat dog.
If a few of the kids in the private schools are thick they will still end up with a better overall education than had they gone to a State School as they will be pushed to perform to the best of their ability so the parents can say they have given them the best overall start in life..
They will still end up with better jobs than had they been in the State system

I agree they will do, less so because of the quality of the education but the doors they unlock - that’s where the thick ones truly benefit from it.

I’m not particularly averse to private schools, I’m just entirely in favour of them not having VAT exemption. If people want to throw money at it, absolutely fill their boots. The schools or they shouldn’t be subsidised when doing it though.

 

[metalblue]

My point wasn't that private schools are a competitive advantage which they clearly are intended to be but that the tax break was an added advantage over and above.

Even when you consider they are paying for a state education system they do not use?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Even when you consider they are paying for a state education system they do not use?

They do use it.

I'd imagine their cleaners, gardeners, and house keepers are are more likely to be state educated.

 

[metalblue]

Isn't this policy exactly that?

It's an increase on taxation, aimed at the wealthy, raising up to £1.5 billion, which is then targeted at the most disadvantaged students.

As for the scholarship issue, less than 1% of private school kids get their fees paid - about 6000 pupils across the whole country. Those kids are then brought up inside the same system that perpetuates the privilege, and so when they reach those positions of power, they're less likely to want to create a fairer society. Those kids are almost certainly not from the poorest backgrounds either (any school with selection policies tends to result in discrimination, even when money isn't directly involved).

I agree that businesses with the power are tough to change, but then there have been major strides over the years in the number of women on private boards, and I'd argue that a little social engineering will have much greater impact than letting a few token kids inside the system.

At best this policy will directly net the treasury half of that, or to put it in context if every penny directly raised from this policy went to education it would increase the education budget by 0.4%, indirectly (through increased spending power of parents) there may be more VAT raised but that is both hard to quantify and it certainly won’t end up being ring fenced for education.

If these privately educated children end up in better jobs with better pay than their state educated equivalents (an argument made in this thread) then by reducing attendance at private school is harmful to the future tax receipts if this country. We can’t have it both ways.

I’d conclude by saying education is not goods it’s an investment and should not be subject to VAT, within the same investment context we should be spending much more on state provision on education, it should be up by at least 30% from current levels. Education is one of those things that should more than pay for itself in the long term so spending more on it is a bit of a no brainer.