Should National Service be mandatory ?

Who am I fighting? What am I fighting for? Who is alongside me? Who has given the orders?

On balance, absolutely not. I can think of nothing I would rather do less than fight an imaginary foe, created for political or commercial gain, with orders given by a range of charlatans wrapping it in the flag.

I am 56, and I imagine my beliefs on this are more 'the norm' than not. We have been let down by a whole swathe of political leaders and their press, who have diverted our eyes while the real enemies sit in our own corridors of power, and in those of the historic allies who pay them billions.
 
oldius said:
Who am I fighting? What am I fighting for? Who is alongside me? Who has given the orders?

On balance, absolutely not. I can think of nothing I would rather do less than fight an imaginary foe, created for political or commercial gain, with orders given by a range of charlatans wrapping it in the flag.

I am 56, and I imagine my beliefs on this are more 'the norm' than not. We have been let down by a whole swathe of political leaders and their press, who have diverted our eyes while the real enemies sit in our own corridors of power, and in those of the historic allies who pay them billions.
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Probably the Russians, Your family, freedom, hopefully like minded individuals, incompetent politicians but competent military leaders. Unless of course you don’t want to do that and like eating cabbage and drinking vodka. Yes we have corrupt individuals in power always have always will but do you think having someone like Putin in charge is better. The world has been at relative peace for only 80 years out of the past thousand, there’s a reason for that, an imaginary foe is something that doesn’t exist but I’m afraid to tell you they do exist just ask any Ukrainian.
 
Blue Maverick said:
Unfortunately it maybe a necessity, the forces we have are just not enough, there maybe be lots of crying and wailing but there’s a pretty good chance in the next few years war might happen in Europe now. People have to stop this thinking it’s nit on our land because once it reaches our shores it’s too late. Many other countries have it and times are changing fast they’d need to get a move on.
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Might have been answered in the 15 pages but how old are you and would you be eligible for any proposed national service?
 
National service would be better served training to work on a production line building drones and missiles instead of traditional training only to be killed by a drone strike.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Self sacrifice doesn’t always have to be in the common cause. However, bring a productive member of society is a common cause that also pays off for the individual, it’s a twofer!

And, the thing about sacrifice is that, yes, you do want to believe it will result in a better tomorrow, but we don’t get to decide the future, so not all sacrifice pays off. That’s all part of life.

Swallowing political doctrine as a substitute for self-belief and thinking for oneself is a bit of a cop out. Yes, the world owes you nothing and you’re expected to become self-sufficient and have pride in taking care of yourself and loved ones, but the social safety net provided in the UK is an eye wateringly generous back stop that should help you succeed, not pull you back from the effort.

Do YOU believe that “material wealth” is the mark of success? Or, is it the love of a good man/woman? The respect of your peers? A solid and reliable friend group?

Sure, there is a small element of material wealth associated with success, if you believe the financial security of your family is a goal, but it’s not all about flash, as I’ve stated previously. Indeed, I think the 24/7/365 diet of “reality TV” and entertainment “culture” is a disease that’s killing brains and lives in Britain. The fact that Big Brother and I’m a celebrity get me out of here, and the like, are so popular speaks to the slow death of whatever culture there remains. Lad culture is yet another disease, but what’s the cure, and did politics create that disease?

Nah, that’s all a bunch of swallowed bollocks that soft minds use as an excuse for getting up, going to work, living within your means and saving a few bob for tomorrow!

People need to get their heads out of their arses and realize the people who win the life lottery actually worked to buy the ticket…it didn’t just happen for 99% of them!

And don’t get me started on the Kardashianization of the face (and body) of the British female! WTAF???

Again, it’s a mindset. That mindset can change lives…or it can give the middle finger to everything in life. Choices.

Those young people are clueless and destined for the scrap heap of society. Maybe some positive change would help them get ahead, because what they’re doing and saying isn’t working for them, is it?!

The country and the society IS THEM TOMORROW. It us generations of “fuck this got a lark” attitudes that put Britain where it is…and yet tomorrow they’ll be blaming everyone else AGAIN!!

People need to buck the fuck up and take some personal responsibility for what they do 24/7/365 and stop bowling the world for their lives. And, if they need some perspective on how good they have it, maybe they could read a fucking book about life outside the First World Europe they were born into!

Most in Britain already won the genetic and geographic lottery, but the prize just wasn’t as big as they wanted, because they saw someone else on their £1,000 phone has more.

Boo fucking hoo!
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With respect you might be missing my point or we might even be agreeing more than seems to be the case. Unless some weird evolutionarly thing has occured we haven't within a generation or two biologically evolved into less resilient or productive people. A whole generation didn't get out of bed one morning and go fuck me I fancy getting a trout pout and making myself look like some kind of wierd wax mannequin and that means I'll have some self-worth. The mindset you talk about came from somewhere, it's not an intrinsic thing (although social media is fucking up people's brains pretty badly it would appear). The mindset I had growing up was shaped by my parents but also by the fact that I had three channels of tele to watch none of which spent its entire time trying to self me shit I didn't need. It was shaped by the fact that no one was telling me every 5 mins that crypto, fame, the lottery etc was going to make me rich quick. Sure there was some scary cold war shit but I wasn't bombarded with that 24/7. There was the odd jazz mag chucked in the bushes not a rabbit hole of increasingly extreme porn to which I could become addicted. What I saw was that whilst the dice was loaded it wasn't as loaded as it had been in the past and so if you got your head down and worked hard there was a chance that you could do ok. It never occurred to me that the education system was designed to babysit me because they didn't know what to do with me or make money from me. It seemed like it was designed to get me someplace if I wanted to take advantage of it.

Personality plays a part but generally we get the behaviours we incentivise and the values we model. I think we've incentivised the wrong things and modelled the wrong behaviours and we reap what we sow. I suspect where we differ is that perhaps you think humans can 100% buck all that extrinsic pull with just their intrinsic motivation? Whereas I don't think that's the case at least for the vast majority of people.
 
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ChicagoBlue said:
it didn’t hurt that generation.
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Yeah, you can't feel pain when you've hanged yourself

"the hellish chaos of basic training": its violence, verbal savagery, the dumb misery of military drills, the horrors of bayonet practice. Several young men killed themselves during training – usually by hanging from a lavatory cistern, because "the shithouse" was the only place that gave a moment's privacy

www.theguardian.com

National Service: Conscription in Britain 1945-1963 by Richard Vinen – review

Richard Davenport-Hines explores the forgotten history of Britain's peacetime conscription
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Does it not occur to proponents of this that there were very good reasons why it was stopped in the first place?
 
adrianr said:
Might have been answered in the 15 pages but how old are you and would you be eligible for any proposed national service?
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56 and I did nearly 13 in the RAF, if we need a home guard or reserve force so others could go I’d volunteer if it kept my family safe. Not everyone can go on the frontline but if push came to shove and my freedom depended on it I’d certainly go.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
Yeah, you can't feel pain when you've hanged yourself

"the hellish chaos of basic training": its violence, verbal savagery, the dumb misery of military drills, the horrors of bayonet practice. Several young men killed themselves during training – usually by hanging from a lavatory cistern, because "the shithouse" was the only place that gave a moment's privacy

www.theguardian.com

National Service: Conscription in Britain 1945-1963 by Richard Vinen – review

Richard Davenport-Hines explores the forgotten history of Britain's peacetime conscription
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Does it not occur to proponents of this that there were very good reasons why it was stopped in the first place?
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I think we’ve someone moved on since then and training although it’s designed to break you down to build you back up its whats needed, yes there are exceptions like there is in anything.
 
Blue Maverick said:
I think we’ve someone moved on since then and training although it’s designed to break you down to build you back up its whats needed, yes there are exceptions like there is in anything.
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If you think putting a million teenagers under absolute power of young men supervising them won't result in abuse, I have a bridge you may be interested in.
 
Blue Maverick said:
It will start in the baltics, Putin once Trump pulls the plug will push into a small Baltic state to see if NATO trigger article 5, if they don’t NATO is dead, if they do then they will pummel Russia out, however it’s what Putin does then, if he’s given a bloody nose does he walk away it will certainly end him, if he then goes full in id expect missile attacks along the borders of the Baltic’s maybe upto Sweden and Finland with the chance he may try and launch something further especially at us they hate us, then it’s what response do we do, launch into Russia deep and what with,then it’s quickly spirals.
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I think the Fins will be the ones who give him a bloody nose.
For the simple reason the nation have been training for years.
 
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Silva Citizen said:
National service does not have to be military. For instance it could be with the NHS or Civil Service or councils
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Or we could, you know, employ young people to work in those organisations?

I've got a 20yo son, currently studying engineering at Uni.

Exactly what would the advantage to him, or the country, for being forced to do something completely unrelated for two years, presumably unwaged*

It's a bizarre proposition.

*If you're proposing to pay these people, (1) it will be ruinously expensive and (2) your be far better off giving the money to the organisations you want to support to actually employ people who want to be there!
 
roubaixtuesday said:
Or we could, you know, employ young people to work in those organisations?

I've got a 20yo son, currently studying engineering at Uni.

Exactly what would the advantage to him, or the country, for being forced to do something completely unrelated for two years, presumably unwaged*

It's a bizarre proposition.

*If you're proposing to pay these people, (1) it will be ruinously expensive and (2) your be far better off giving the money to the organisations you want to support to actually employ people who want to be there!
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They have some of the best engineers in the world In our armed forces who go onto even better things
 
Silva Citizen said:
National service does not have to be military. For instance it could be with the NHS or Civil Service or councils
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In Norway, that’s exactly what the conscientious objectors to the military National Service do. They do about 18 months in civilian roles working where numbers are needed in the country.

Even in military National Service, it’s not running round fields shooting at cardboard cutouts and being made to run up Currahee twice a day at dusk and dawn. They can start on education pathways, leadership pathways, learn trades…

Where there are skills shortages in employment sectors in a country, NS can target training people in that sector. There’s a skills shortage in tech in Britain, especially Manchester, for example, so you’d target that.
 
Blue Maverick said:
Probably the Russians, Your family, freedom, hopefully like minded individuals, incompetent politicians but competent military leaders. Unless of course you don’t want to do that and like eating cabbage and drinking vodka. Yes we have corrupt individuals in power always have always will but do you think having someone like Putin in charge is better. The world has been at relative peace for only 80 years out of the past thousand, there’s a reason for that, an imaginary foe is something that doesn’t exist but I’m afraid to tell you they do exist just ask any Ukrainian.
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Fight for Boris Johnson, Trump, or Netanyahu, against 'enemies' I have never met?
These guys are not incompetent, they are corrupt, and create enemies where non exist, for their own political and monetary gain.
I could ask any Ukrainian, of course, and equally any Palestinian, or Afghani, or Iraqi, or Venezuelan.

I would fight for myself and my family, of course, but not for these guys.
 
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