So what’s so wrong with labour shortages driving up low wages?

[BobKowalski]

Immigration does have a positive impact on demand but that doesn’t mean wages rise as a result ….which brings us back to the start really

Immigration has no bearing on wage levels either way. Domestic policies impact wage levels. Employee bargaining power, unions, cultural views on workers and employee rights, weak social security net, ease of hiring and firing etc.

Which brings us back to Switzerland, which based on GDP per head, is the second richest country in Europe and with a net average income almost double the UK and 27% of its population are immigrants.

The reason we dislike FoM is that it gives foreigners rights to live here and import their culture. We didn't want that, so, Brexit. The Swiss didn’t like it either which is why they narrowly voted to end FoM in 2014 (if memory serves). The Swiss Govt knew that would be an effing disaster, so, they put in some sops about jobs being offered to Swiss nationals first etc, and everyone agreed that was much better and FoM stayed.

 

[metalblue]

Immigration has no bearing on wage levels either way. Domestic policies impact wage levels. Employee bargaining power, unions, cultural views on workers and employee rights, weak social security net, ease of hiring and firing etc.

Which brings us back to Switzerland, which based on GDP per head, is the second richest country in Europe and with a net average income almost double the UK and 27% of its population are immigrants.

The reason we dislike FoM is that it gives foreigners rights to live here and import their culture. We didn't want that, so, Brexit. The Swiss didn’t like it either which is why they narrowly voted to end FoM in 2014 (if memory serves). The Swiss Govt knew that would be an effing disaster, so, they put in some sops about jobs being offered to Swiss nationals first etc, and everyone agreed that was much better and FoM stayed.

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[BobKowalski]

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Because England has gone full ‘little Englander’ and dragged two other countries within our Union, kicking and screaming along with it.

You only have to read Frost’s absurd speech tonight to realise the depths to which the country has sank. It’s part comedy, part farce.

 

[hilts]

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

He's been pushing it for years in fairness. He cannot grasp that his opinions are not facts. He has told several whoppers that he can't back up in his last few posts on here alone.

 

[BobKowalski]

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

And it’s Freedom of Movement, not immigration. It is regarded in the same way as we regard movement between Scotland, England and Wales - Three nations, one Union and no restrictions on labour.

The two most expensive cities in Europe based on cost of living index are Geneva and Zurich. The third is London.

As for ‘overwhelming evidence‘ re FoM and wage suppression, it is remarkable how countries like Germany manage to stagger on given the low level of wages compared to our glorious example. God, knows why 30 European countries subscribe to it. Must be an absolute blight on their economies and standard of living.

I assume countries with restrictive immigration laws or even no outward or inward immigration must be virtual paradises of highly paid and prosperous citizens. North Korea must be a hoot.

 

[hilts]

I assume countries with restrictive immigration laws or even no outward or inward immigration must be virtual paradises of highly paid and prosperous citizens. North Korea must be a hoot.

Didn’t think you could actually post anything more ridiculous or pathetic, congrats:-)

 

[Mike D]

The problem is that putting up wages in the short terms only does one thing that shift drivers to who ever is paying the higher wages. It solves absolutely nothing towards solving the real problem. The company that I work for is struggling with drivers and production line workers which is reducing our output and logistics are hamstrung.

When 30% of workforce is eastern European and that supply is cut off its inevitable that this would happen. When you have an ideologically driven far right Brexit driven government this is what you get. We will survive no doubt but many more won't I guess we all just have to accept this shit shower for what it is.

 

[hilts]

Decades of incompetence, no forward thinking and taking the easiest option bites country on arse. Excellent stuff. You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs. I think this lot will just pick something else for breakfast though.

 

[metalblue]

And it’s Freedom of Movement, not immigration. It is regarded in the same way as we regard movement between Scotland, England and Wales - Three nations, one Union and no restrictions on labour.

The two most expensive cities in Europe based on cost of living index are Geneva and Zurich. The third is London.

As for ‘overwhelming evidence‘ re FoM and wage suppression, it is remarkable how countries like Germany manage to stagger on given the low level of wages compared to our glorious example. God, knows why 30 European countries subscribe to it. Must be an absolute blight on their economies and standard of living.

I assume countries with restrictive immigration laws or even no outward or inward immigration must be virtual paradises of highly paid and prosperous citizens. North Korea must be a hoot.

Yes the cost of living is high in London, which is why the salaries are higher…

Ok so now we’ve moved on from Switzerland to Germany, anyway on to Germany we go…

Gross average salaries are higher, net average salaries are broadly the same as the UK… around £70 higher, so no discernible difference. In Germany the average worker will pay something like 2.5 times the direct taxation the average UK worker does. Headline numbers of course and without doing a detailed analysis (other taxes such as property, VAT etc) so it’s hard to say if you are better off in the UK or Germany but I’d probably say they’ll be nothing in it.

What country are we going to visit next I wonder as we tour Europe for you trying to prove that FoM/immigration/emigration doesn’t impact wages.

 

[jaseirai]

Yes the cost of living is high in London, which is why the salaries are higher…

Ok so now we’ve moved on from Switzerland to Germany, anyway on to Germany we go…

Gross average salaries are higher, net average salaries are broadly the same as the UK… around £70 higher, so no discernible difference. In Germany the average worker will pay something like 2.5 times the direct taxation the average UK worker does. Headline numbers of course and without doing a detailed analysis (other taxes such as property, VAT etc) so it’s hard to say if you are better off in the UK or Germany but I’d probably say they’ll be nothing in it.

What country are we going to visit next I wonder as we tour Europe for you trying to prove that FoM/immigration/emigration doesn’t impact wages.

Consumption per capita adjusted by PPP is the only way I can think of which compares living standards across countries. No doubt someone will have done the analysis.

 

[west didsblue]

Yes the cost of living is high in London, which is why the salaries are higher…

Ok so now we’ve moved on from Switzerland to Germany, anyway on to Germany we go…

Gross average salaries are higher, net average salaries are broadly the same as the UK… around £70 higher, so no discernible difference. In Germany the average worker will pay something like 2.5 times the direct taxation the average UK worker does. Headline numbers of course and without doing a detailed analysis (other taxes such as property, VAT etc) so it’s hard to say if you are better off in the UK or Germany but I’d probably say they’ll be nothing in it.

What country are we going to visit next I wonder as we tour Europe for you trying to prove that FoM/immigration/emigration doesn’t impact wages.

Comparing average salaries is meaningless and pointless unless you take into account the difference between the highest paid and the lowest paid for each country under consideration. A comparison of the average driver or factory worker would be more appropriate rather than including the distorting effect on the average of a relatively small number of very highly paid people, which varies country to country. It’s the mode figure that needs to be compared not the mean when looking at the effects of FoM.

 

[yerwot?]

Comparing average salaries is meaningless and pointless unless you take into account the difference between the highest paid and the lowest paid for each country under consideration. A comparison of the average driver or factory worker would be more appropriate rather than including the distorting effect on the average of a relatively small number of very highly paid people, which varies country to country. It’s the mode figure that needs to be compared not the mean when looking at the effects of FoM.

even a brief look into how "statistics" are compiled will show how they can be manipulated, twisted to the point of being a propaganda tool to "prove" whatever suits the publisher's agenda.
The "unemployment figures" being the most doctored in the thatcher years and trumpeted as "facts" by the mail and sun.....

 

[metalblue]

Consumption per capita adjusted by PPP is the only way I can think of which compares living standards across countries. No doubt someone will have done the analysis.

That’s the only one I could really think of as a starting point mate but it still requires a huge amount of analysis to do meaningful comparisons.

 

[metalblue]

Comparing average salaries is meaningless and pointless unless you take into account the difference between the highest paid and the lowest paid for each country under consideration. A comparison of the average driver or factory worker would be more appropriate rather than including the distorting effect on the average of a relatively small number of very highly paid people, which varies country to country. It’s the mode figure that needs to be compared not the mean when looking at the effects of FoM.

Fair points. The mode data isn’t readily available although I’m sure it exists.

The trouble with selecting a specific industry or profession is even that is distorted based on numerous other factors. Nurses in Germany for example, on average (yes I know averages again) take home a good £300-500 less a month than their UK counterpart.

But irrespective of mode/average/etc. Take home pay is also subjective as people can be very happy to take home less today for far better pensions tomorrow (or welfare system or whatever). That’s something you can’t really derive from statistics alone.

 

[BobKowalski]

Yes the cost of living is high in London, which is why the salaries are higher…

Ok so now we’ve moved on from Switzerland to Germany, anyway on to Germany we go…

Gross average salaries are higher, net average salaries are broadly the same as the UK… around £70 higher, so no discernible difference. In Germany the average worker will pay something like 2.5 times the direct taxation the average UK worker does. Headline numbers of course and without doing a detailed analysis (other taxes such as property, VAT etc) so it’s hard to say if you are better off in the UK or Germany but I’d probably say they’ll be nothing in it.

What country are we going to visit next I wonder as we tour Europe for you trying to prove that FoM/immigration/emigration doesn’t impact wages.

Gross wages are higher, net broadly the same, meaning the State has more to invest in say education, health, infrastructure, thereby giving citizens a better quality of life in terms of its social support structure. Certainly, Germany is better off in the number of ICU beds per head of population as we recently discovered.

So, Unions are stronger, productivity is higher, workers are better paid, State security net is better and FoM barely a mention (unless you are an AfD supporter).

We can meander over to East Europe, Poland (very much in the news), how has that economy grown from a closed, low immigration, communist economy? Since 2000 it has almost doubled in size, wage growth in real terms has also grown. East European economies doing well despite the crippling handicaps of EU membership and FoM.

The only two EU countries that didn't see wage growth from 2010 was Greece and the UK. All other countries with FoM saw wage growth in real terms. So, what was the real suppressant on wage growth in the UK? FoM or domestic policies?

Neither FoM, or immigration, suppresses wages in real terms. We know this because there are numerous examples in Europe where it has not done so. That being the case, it would seem logical for us to copy best practices in these countries. Instead, we decided to set fire to everything and pretend the enemy was Karl the butcher from Poland.

‘Little Englander’ logic at its finest.

 

[BobKowalski]

Didn’t think you could actually post anything more ridiculous or pathetic, congrats:-)

I enjoy taking up Brexit logic and then following it through, until it inevitably disappears up its own fetid arse.

 

[hilts]

I enjoy taking up Brexit logic and then following it through, until it inevitably disappears up its own fetid arse.

Only a few seem remotely bothered so I’m not sure who your audience is. If the thread had developed into an actual discussion on the topic at hand it may have been worth sticking with. I’m not sure why some of you need to blight every thread with your daily obsession.

If you leave the what have we done to the correct thread(with the incorrect title) others might want to contribute to this one.

 

[west didsblue]

Only a few seem remotely bothered so I’m not sure who your audience is. If the thread had developed into an actual discussion on the topic at hand it may have been worth sticking with. I’m not sure why some of you need to blight every thread with your daily obsession.

If you leave the what have we done to the correct thread(with the incorrect title) others might want to contribute to this one.

In answer to the thread title, two main things.

1) Inflation - unsustainable pay rises for people involved in the supply chain whether at the production end, the logistics bit or the retail end makes those goods more expensive which offsets the pay rises to some extent.
2) You've still not got enough people so there's less stuff delivered, less places open and therefore less choice for the consumer. Which means less overall spending and therefore a smaller economy. In some instances where it affects essential items it could lead to panic buying and even further shortages.

In summary, there's a lot wrong with the premise of the thread title. Low wages should be driven up by productivity and growth, not by scarcity and inflation, which is what you get from restricting FoM and being unwelcoming to people who want to contribute to our economy.

And the reason we are in a worse predicament than nearly every other country (who also have issues due to the pandemic) is that just when we should be making it easier for people to work here, we're making it harder, thanks to the venal arseholes delivering Brexit insisting that we turn our back on Europe in order to enrich themselves and their sponsors.

So unfortunately, in spite of the question not being specifically to do with the EU and Brexit, you can't get away from the fact Brexit is a huge factor in this.

 

[hilts]

In answer to the thread title, two main things.

1) Inflation - unsustainable pay rises for people involved in the supply chain whether at the production end, the logistics bit or the retail end makes those goods more expensive which offsets the pay rises to some extent.
2) You've still not got enough people so there's less stuff delivered, less places open and therefore less choice for the consumer. Which means less overall spending and therefore a smaller economy. In some instances where it affects essential items it could lead to panic buying and even further shortages.

In summary, there's a lot wrong with the premise of the thread title. Low wages should be driven up by productivity and growth, not by scarcity and inflation, which is what you get from restricting FoM and being unwelcoming to people who want to contribute to our economy.

And the reason we are in a worse predicament than nearly every other country (who also have issues due to the pandemic) is that just when we should be making it easier for people to work here, we're making it harder, thanks to the venal arseholes delivering Brexit insisting that we turn our back on Europe in order to enrich themselves and their sponsors.

So unfortunately, in spite of the question not being specifically to do with the EU and Brexit, you can't get away from the fact Brexit is a huge factor in this.

But brexit has happened and you have a thread to moan about it on and none of you are shy about it.

Anyhow to the relevant points. Increased productivity is one thing but if someone's wages are artificially low then why should they have to increase productivity. Could a care worker care for more people than they do now? If not should they be forever subjected to shite pay?

Is the lorry supposed to carry more goods, drive faster?

The trailer is one size and the speed restricted:-)

Common sense tells me those on unfair low pay should get a rise. Can we get ourselves in a situation where pay rises too much due to lack of labour? Yes it certainly could. That's why a decent govt with a bit of forward planning is needed. We don't have one hardly the care workers fault.

A ready supply of labour is bad
A mass shortage of labour is bad

A lot have suffered from the first and we all suffer because our governments have taken the easy route for far too long. This will take a long time to put right or a short time if a bandaid is applied.

I expect a bandaid and a lot of you will welcome it. All of this is going to be a missed opportunity(the rich aside) but that's the problem with the staus quo. There is enough of you that makes change in this country impossible.

 

[metalblue]

Gross wages are higher, net broadly the same, meaning the State has more to invest in say education, health, infrastructure, thereby giving citizens a better quality of life in terms of its social support structure. Certainly, Germany is better off in the number of ICU beds per head of population as we recently discovered.

So, Unions are stronger, productivity is higher, workers are better paid, State security net is better and FoM barely a mention (unless you are an AfD supporter).

We can meander over to East Europe, Poland (very much in the news), how has that economy grown from a closed, low immigration, communist economy? Since 2000 it has almost doubled in size, wage growth in real terms has also grown. East European economies doing well despite the crippling handicaps of EU membership and FoM.

The only two EU countries that didn't see wage growth from 2010 was Greece and the UK. All other countries with FoM saw wage growth in real terms. So, what was the real suppressant on wage growth in the UK? FoM or domestic policies?

Neither FoM, or immigration, suppresses wages in real terms. We know this because there are numerous examples in Europe where it has not done so. That being the case, it would seem logical for us to copy best practices in these countries. Instead, we decided to set fire to everything and pretend the enemy was Karl the butcher from Poland.

‘Little Englander’ logic at its finest.

What Germany chooses to spend its tax take on is unrelated to the impact of immigration on wages - but whilst on the subject, in real terms, there has been a real terms decline in both gross and take home pay in Germany.

Whilst I’m super pleased that “Bob” off bluemoon knows that immigration doesn’t suppress wages in real terms (despite no evidence to support this). You might like to take your carefully researched findings up with the IMF who have also concluded that immigration had resulted in a wage decline in Germany in the low income sectors that immigrants were mainly employed in. This is not to say immigration is bad for the economy per-se as immigrants will naturally create demand which creates employment further up the pay scale and the IMF rightly pointed this out. The risk is economies become over reliant on importing cheap labour as the aspirations of their own workforce result in a more skilled talent pool which might well store up future problems - the UK being exhibit A your honour.

Poland, as I previously stated has benefitted from emigration. Salaries in the middle skilled workforce (most likely to emigrate) has increased. In the low skill workforce (least likely to emigrate) it has gone down. Simple supply and demand. The Polish economy has done well out of FoM.