So what’s so wrong with labour shortages driving up low wages?

[BobKowalski]

Immigration does have a positive impact on demand but that doesn’t mean wages rise as a result ….which brings us back to the start really

Immigration has no bearing on wage levels either way. Domestic policies impact wage levels. Employee bargaining power, unions, cultural views on workers and employee rights, weak social security net, ease of hiring and firing etc.

Which brings us back to Switzerland, which based on GDP per head, is the second richest country in Europe and with a net average income almost double the UK and 27% of its population are immigrants.

The reason we dislike FoM is that it gives foreigners rights to live here and import their culture. We didn't want that, so, Brexit. The Swiss didn’t like it either which is why they narrowly voted to end FoM in 2014 (if memory serves). The Swiss Govt knew that would be an effing disaster, so, they put in some sops about jobs being offered to Swiss nationals first etc, and everyone agreed that was much better and FoM stayed.

 

[metalblue]

Immigration has no bearing on wage levels either way. Domestic policies impact wage levels. Employee bargaining power, unions, cultural views on workers and employee rights, weak social security net, ease of hiring and firing etc.

Which brings us back to Switzerland, which based on GDP per head, is the second richest country in Europe and with a net average income almost double the UK and 27% of its population are immigrants.

The reason we dislike FoM is that it gives foreigners rights to live here and import their culture. We didn't want that, so, Brexit. The Swiss didn’t like it either which is why they narrowly voted to end FoM in 2014 (if memory serves). The Swiss Govt knew that would be an effing disaster, so, they put in some sops about jobs being offered to Swiss nationals first etc, and everyone agreed that was much better and FoM stayed.

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[BobKowalski]

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Because England has gone full ‘little Englander’ and dragged two other countries within our Union, kicking and screaming along with it.

You only have to read Frost’s absurd speech tonight to realise the depths to which the country has sank. It’s part comedy, part farce.

 

[hilts]

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

He's been pushing it for years in fairness. He cannot grasp that his opinions are not facts. He has told several whoppers that he can't back up in his last few posts on here alone.

 

[BobKowalski]

You seem keen to push the little englander narrative but I don’t know why - it seems out of place for the thread, I’m not arguing why people do or don’t like immigrants it has no bearing on wages.

Switzerland which you’ve cited a couple of times now… the cost of living is off the scale; something as simple as even a coffee or a Coke will set you back 3 or 4 times what it does here. Geneva is well stocked with French “emigrants” who work there and live in France. This has a massive knock on effected on the French side of the border. Making it hard for French companies operating in the region to hire (salary and very uncompetitive employer taxes) - another example of wages being impacted by immigration/emigration which you seem unwilling to accept despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

And it’s Freedom of Movement, not immigration. It is regarded in the same way as we regard movement between Scotland, England and Wales - Three nations, one Union and no restrictions on labour.

The two most expensive cities in Europe based on cost of living index are Geneva and Zurich. The third is London.

As for ‘overwhelming evidence‘ re FoM and wage suppression, it is remarkable how countries like Germany manage to stagger on given the low level of wages compared to our glorious example. God, knows why 30 European countries subscribe to it. Must be an absolute blight on their economies and standard of living.

I assume countries with restrictive immigration laws or even no outward or inward immigration must be virtual paradises of highly paid and prosperous citizens. North Korea must be a hoot.

 

[hilts]

I assume countries with restrictive immigration laws or even no outward or inward immigration must be virtual paradises of highly paid and prosperous citizens. North Korea must be a hoot.

Didn’t think you could actually post anything more ridiculous or pathetic, congrats:-)

 

[Mike D]

The problem is that putting up wages in the short terms only does one thing that shift drivers to who ever is paying the higher wages. It solves absolutely nothing towards solving the real problem. The company that I work for is struggling with drivers and production line workers which is reducing our output and logistics are hamstrung.

When 30% of workforce is eastern European and that supply is cut off its inevitable that this would happen. When you have an ideologically driven far right Brexit driven government this is what you get. We will survive no doubt but many more won't I guess we all just have to accept this shit shower for what it is.

 

[hilts]

Decades of incompetence, no forward thinking and taking the easiest option bites country on arse. Excellent stuff. You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs. I think this lot will just pick something else for breakfast though.

 

[metalblue]

And it’s Freedom of Movement, not immigration. It is regarded in the same way as we regard movement between Scotland, England and Wales - Three nations, one Union and no restrictions on labour.

The two most expensive cities in Europe based on cost of living index are Geneva and Zurich. The third is London.

As for ‘overwhelming evidence‘ re FoM and wage suppression, it is remarkable how countries like Germany manage to stagger on given the low level of wages compared to our glorious example. God, knows why 30 European countries subscribe to it. Must be an absolute blight on their economies and standard of living.

I assume countries with restrictive immigration laws or even no outward or inward immigration must be virtual paradises of highly paid and prosperous citizens. North Korea must be a hoot.

Yes the cost of living is high in London, which is why the salaries are higher…

Ok so now we’ve moved on from Switzerland to Germany, anyway on to Germany we go…

Gross average salaries are higher, net average salaries are broadly the same as the UK… around £70 higher, so no discernible difference. In Germany the average worker will pay something like 2.5 times the direct taxation the average UK worker does. Headline numbers of course and without doing a detailed analysis (other taxes such as property, VAT etc) so it’s hard to say if you are better off in the UK or Germany but I’d probably say they’ll be nothing in it.

What country are we going to visit next I wonder as we tour Europe for you trying to prove that FoM/immigration/emigration doesn’t impact wages.

 

[jaseirai]

Yes the cost of living is high in London, which is why the salaries are higher…

Ok so now we’ve moved on from Switzerland to Germany, anyway on to Germany we go…

Gross average salaries are higher, net average salaries are broadly the same as the UK… around £70 higher, so no discernible difference. In Germany the average worker will pay something like 2.5 times the direct taxation the average UK worker does. Headline numbers of course and without doing a detailed analysis (other taxes such as property, VAT etc) so it’s hard to say if you are better off in the UK or Germany but I’d probably say they’ll be nothing in it.

What country are we going to visit next I wonder as we tour Europe for you trying to prove that FoM/immigration/emigration doesn’t impact wages.

Consumption per capita adjusted by PPP is the only way I can think of which compares living standards across countries. No doubt someone will have done the analysis.