SOS NHS

The NHS doesn't recruit GP's so there is no such thing as retention beyond paying them more on their contracts or helping them in other ways to stay on the list and see people. These people let's not forget are paid £100k+ so I'm not sure what a better retention incentive would be?

The GP system is broken and it's precisely why the whole system is in a mess as it's oriented around money and not patients. For example, the vaccination service will be wrapped up soon and put to the pharmacy/GP arena who will be paid £15-30 per vaccine administered....

So do you reckon the GP will prioritise NHS appointments or will they prioritise £30 a go earners? I can book a blood pressure check or flu jab with the nurse or at the pharmacy tomorrow but why can't I see my GP for a week? It's because my GP is doing something else half the week and everything else can be done quickly because it pays better and so is widely available.

The GP system was vulnerable before COVID and then COVID blew it apart because hundreds of thousands couldn't get appointments and/or couldn't be seen face to face. If you can't see a GP then you go to the next available system which is A&E and urgent care so is it any surprise that they're now falling apart?

Fix the GP system and we fix the NHS. We could nationalise GP's but doing that is another issue because how many GP's flexibly earning £100k+ will accept working 60hrs+ a week on the frozen NHS banding system...?

I’m not sure it’s as straightforward as your last paragraph but it’s certainly one of the things that needs fixing. When I was a lad anyone of us could go tap on the GP’s front door of a weekend and he’d fix us up. Nowadays you can’t get an appointment and by the time you can you’re either dead or better.
 
Fix the GP system and we fix the NHS. We could nationalise GP's but doing that is another issue because how many GP's flexibly earning £100k+ will accept working 60hrs+ a week on the frozen NHS banding system...?
According to BMA/DDRB figures, £100k p.a. is top whack for NHS GP's. Not that there is an upper limit, just that's the upper end of the spectrum.

Retention wise, they need better jobs. We have them applying sticking plasters to quite ill people with no hope of being treated properly, unable to make effective referrals, finding patients who can't get enough time from them in A&E being diagnosed with severe conditions, because there is no time to practise whole patient or preventative medicine. They just don't fancy such a demoralising professional existence. They were leaving even before health statistics in this country are in free fall. Because of our attitude, Brexit, funding, COVID. And it's clear as day, for many years, we have not trained or recruit enough replacements. Much of the reason why is in the hands of politicians. They simply chose not to address it. Instead, shortly before COVID arrived, they pulled a political move in telling Doctors to shut up about this stuff and get on with it.

There are many things we could have done, that Consecutive Tory governments won't do for ideological reasons. They don't like safety, advice, nanny government. Which is a problem - that runs into best practise, preventative and whole patient / whole society medicine. They are also very cynical about NHS spending but they are very cynical about any public spending. 12 years ago I could get a referral to any number of services. Now, in a much worse situation, I have a serious condition that inevitably would have been picked up and treated sooner but for not being seen face to face, not having my heart listened to, my BP checked, my inflammation symptoms checked visibly.

A stitch in time saves nine. Well, there's a whole NHS problem - and our solution has been to stop handing out stitches. And now we turn around and say, well, look how bad it is! No real solutions here guys - we'll have to find a way of bypassing this whole stitching idea altogether.

I am so confident, as I rarely am. I'd compare my confidence and experience of this to WMD in Iraq, that Syria would lead to a disaster... maybe the obvious outcomes of Brexit.

Somewhere between all three. Because it doesn't add up the way anyone is talking about it. People of all sorts get swept up in the stream of information and ideas and news. And they don't pay attention to the very basics that are swept away under their feet. That's what's happened here. This is a nonsense, we are losing hundreds of thousands, millions even, of people from the workforce, some from economic activity. And we are guaranteed to spend masses of precious resources spending on emergency treatment.

This is getting worse, and I am the tip of this iceberg. I honestly believe the Tories will leave it for Labour to clean up.

Simply because they have no will to do it. And astonishingly, neither has much of the populace - which is pulling the same trick it did when it congratulated itself for not repeating the sins of Iraq by refusing to intervene in Syria, and feeding the same learned helplessness that made headline austerity such a political thing, whilst never once tackling the constant feed of 'one off' govt and bank supply and spending in the background.

My opinion is, many, many people have lost their bearings over the last decade. Capitalism that supports failing entities, pacifies markets. Social politics that paint spending with proven economic benefits as unaffordable.

This is the 'new' way of thinking that accompanies rhetoric about the ideas and actions of previous decades as being tragically deluded. Most of it because, everything is an exaggeration, and most people trip up in front of one or more issues.. get stuck, and before you know it, they're assembling words into shakespeare, misquoting their own made up figures, and ultimately making nonsense sounds that 'just happen' to chime in with the basic political momentum of the times. Because that is what a fecking brain is - like it or not, the damned thing evolved to make all sorts of complicated and nuanced noises to ensure it's safety within the group long before it ever invented ideas.

People should stop making excuses, and check the outcomes. Check the treatment levels. And check their own recent mistakes. This is not how it was. The results are already visible and we have already dialed in huge amounts of furher inevitable shit for the coming decades. Let's see how much is required for us as a society, to feel it is time to stop degrading ourselves.

I give it four years, but it could be fourty. Because if people won't instinctively recognise that unhealthy people cost lots and lots of money, the longer you leave them, the more they cost... then, we're in lalaland already.... but frankly the recency of our decision to 'forget' about COVID probably play a big part in that.
 
It's nice to see a rational debate, as ever MB makes great points, Buzz and Inbet too.

I do not think it is controversial to say the NHS is underfunded. I have been in hospital 29 times and spent over 3 years of my life on a hospital ward. I have witnessed what underfunding does to a ward, I have seen the nursing staff run into the ground. They care too, they are everything that is good about our country. I was at their pleasure when they recieved their new contracts which meant they would have to work longer shifts for no extra pay. The shift patterns were ridiculous. On my ward, there were always certain nurses who preferred to work nights and some days depending on family circumstances. That was stopped every nurse had to do a mix of days and nights. The shift times changed as well. The shifts historically were 7am- 4pm, 4pm -10 pm 10PM- 7am (how many of you do those shifts)

Matrons, yes Matrons do exist, though reading the Mail you would have thought the last one was Hattie Jaques work 8 hour shifts and on my ward we have 2 and a senior sister who take turns to cover the 24 hour day. Matrons though are also responsible for ward admin, they are the middle managers who gets so much shit in the RW media. The ward does have an admin who works from 9 to 5, on my ward she is a red from Salford, but she does not just do admin, she goes round the ward with Cuppas and helps deliver dinners etc. She directs the outsourced cleaners in what needs doing. There used to be an admin assistant who dealt with that and other things but was laid off.

Back to my ward, when I first went in many years ago, there were 24 beds. On any given shift there would be 14 nurses, 2 of which would be at least Sisters. Now my ward has 14 bed s, 6 nurses top and 1 sister/matron on duty.

It is a simple economic fact that a stay for a night in hospital now costs around £400, it makes sense therefore to have more doctors and nurses who can help people go home earlier.

The general public also do not know about the work of the NIHR, they approve funding onto health research, research that could potentially benefit all of us. I do work with Innovation Health Manchester on a number of projects that will hopefully make a difference to our lives, working on everything from GPs appointments to how our city reacted to Covid, to mental health provision to the prevalence of musckoskeletal conditions in the poorest sections of our city.

If Manchester loses its research capacity, it makes us all poorer. We are a great city and we need the NHS.
 
This NHS that you want to save, it wouldn't be the one that asked my 88 yr old mum to attend an appointment at Salford Royal last wek for facial skin cancer treatment would it ? Because having got there they realised she hadn't had a pre-op so sent her home. A pensioner can ill afford £40 in taxi fares never mind be fucked about by people ..... (bites tongue)
Or perhaps its the one that 6 months ago recomended a certain procedure for my brother. When he rang up last week to find out what was happening, he learnt that they withdrew that procedure.... 5 months ago. No one thought it worth telling him or organising something different. He will now have to be referred back to the specialist to decide what to do.
It's fucked and it needs ripping apart.
 
This NHS that you want to save, it wouldn't be the one that asked my 88 yr old mum to attend an appointment at Salford Royal last wek for facial skin cancer treatment would it ? Because having got there they realised she hadn't had a pre-op so sent her home. A pensioner can ill afford £40 in taxi fares never mind be fucked about by people ..... (bites tongue)
Or perhaps its the one that 6 months ago recomended a certain procedure for my brother. When he rang up last week to find out what was happening, he learnt that they withdrew that procedure.... 5 months ago. No one thought it worth telling him or organising something different. He will now have to be referred back to the specialist to decide what to do.
It's fucked and it needs ripping apart.
It's fucked because a lack of funding over many years has already ripped it apart.
 
It's fucked because a lack of funding over many years has already ripped it apart.
There has been an enormous of funding. The fact that it has not been spent correctly is the problem plus, the fact that we now know how to keep people alive far better than we have ever done but refuse to accept the consequences in doing so.
Getting my mum in for an operation without realising she has not had a pre op has nothing to do with funding.
 
This NHS that you want to save, it wouldn't be the one that asked my 88 yr old mum to attend an appointment at Salford Royal last wek for facial skin cancer treatment would it ? Because having got there they realised she hadn't had a pre-op so sent her home. A pensioner can ill afford £40 in taxi fares never mind be fucked about by people ..... (bites tongue)
Or perhaps its the one that 6 months ago recomended a certain procedure for my brother. When he rang up last week to find out what was happening, he learnt that they withdrew that procedure.... 5 months ago. No one thought it worth telling him or organising something different. He will now have to be referred back to the specialist to decide what to do.
It's fucked and it needs ripping apart.

The problem here is that your referring to a particular form of service offered by the NHS - and you’re right when it comes to clinics (which is the part you are talking about) the processes and number of people involved means it very easy for things to go wrong - there generally isn’t a lack of funding in this area of the NHS and most of the problems are driven by poor process/systems that don’t work as well as they might. This is what your family sadly experienced and what you are measuring the NHS on.

Then you have the other side of the coin which @Rascal so passionately spoke of. The wards (and you must include A&E here) - this is the hard yards nursing that every nurse starts off on as a band 5, that every junior doctor beats relentlessly hour after hour learning their trade. This is chronically understaffed and is borderline on lacking capacity although social care is the bigger issue rather than acute capacity. We have an amazing skill in this country that we can keep you alive but we just don’t know what to do with you after that!!

So two problems with different causes yet we seek 1 central solution. @JASR and I spoke about our own knowledge of the ridiculous nature of the IT systems in another thread - this is most challenging in clinics or specialist services. Inefficiencies abound, unfit process, etc etc. This tends to need less money not more - or at least better spent money shall we say. Not a universal truism but for the most part. Then you have the wards which needs more staff and money and a government who rightly asks why aren’t you spending every penny wisely. This is why both these contradictory statements are true…the NHS needs both more money and it needs less money.
 
To some extent, the NHS is simply a reflection of the society it serves.
Society underwent a near decade of austerity and that was followed by the pandemic. The NHS was already struggling to cope with the health effects of the former and now finds itself battling against the health effects of the latter. If it does just manage to stay afloat, somehow, it will then face the health effects of the latest round of austerity, all of which will impact the country’s aging and ailing population.
 

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