Starting XI for next season, your prediction.

[birchwoodgingerste]

Erm...Johnson? Why is it right wing where we have a problem? I'd say it was the left side where we have a few issues seeing as Silva is not a winger.

I have just noticed that just about every post has Sanchez starting there, so what is the alternative that those people have if he is off to Barcelona? By no means am I saying Johnson would not work there, but I want to here what people have to say about the matter since no clear alternative has emerged to Sanchez.

I think Hazard, Cazorla or Mata will be a good shout out right.

yes hazard dax carzola plays on the left mainly though but cud play right no doubt and matta is better in a free role id say hazard ,or nasri and pastore for attacking mid.

 

[CityFootball]

Erm...Johnson? Why is it right wing where we have a problem? I'd say it was the left side where we have a few issues seeing as Silva is not a winger.

I have just noticed that just about every post has Sanchez starting there, so what is the alternative that those people have if he is off to Barcelona? By no means am I saying Johnson would not work there, but I want to here what people have to say about the matter since no clear alternative has emerged to Sanchez.

I think Hazard, Cazorla or Mata will be a good shout out right.

I was also thinking Hazard, it seems he played more at the centre forward position but I think he could adapt to playing on the right side better than a lot of other targets.

Cazorla- I heard rumours City had interest in him near the end of the January transfer window. He shows a lot of potential. What do you think he would be valued at?

 

[LoveCity]

Cazorla was linked on the same day as Matt Jarvis in January, when we were considering a panic buy because Johnson got injured. Nothing since then though.

 

[Dax777]

I have just noticed that just about every post has Sanchez starting there, so what is the alternative that those people have if he is off to Barcelona? By no means am I saying Johnson would not work there, but I want to here what people have to say about the matter since no clear alternative has emerged to Sanchez.

I think Hazard, Cazorla or Mata will be a good shout out right.

yes hazard dax carzola plays on the left mainly though but cud play right no doubt and matta is better in a free role id say hazard ,or nasri and pastore for attacking mid.

Nah, Carzola played mostly on the right when they are in a 442. Cazorla (right) Valero and Bruno (middle) and Cani (left). They used that formation predominantly. But when the play a 4312 with Valero behind the strikers Carzola does start in left Center mid. But he played more often on the right than left.

That said my thinking is having 3 free role guys who only start out on the right, center or left only on paper but really just drift across the attacking 3rd and bringing up the fullbacks for width.

 

[Tevez City]

Before I sleep, lets hope and dream what our starting eleven will be next season:

----------------Hart---------

VDW----Kompany---Richards----Enrique

---------------Yaya---------------

--------Pastore-------Silva---------

AJ-------------Tevez---------Hazard

 

[Dax777]

I have just noticed that just about every post has Sanchez starting there, so what is the alternative that those people have if he is off to Barcelona? By no means am I saying Johnson would not work there, but I want to here what people have to say about the matter since no clear alternative has emerged to Sanchez.

I think Hazard, Cazorla or Mata will be a good shout out right.

I was also thinking Hazard, it seems he played more at the centre forward position but I think he could adapt to playing on the right side better than a lot of other targets.

Cazorla- I heard rumours City had interest in him near the end of the January transfer window. He shows a lot of potential. What do you think he would be valued at?

I don't watch much french Ligue, so my hazard knowledge is from internationals and the French Cup. But reviewing his statistical qualities, I am certain he will be a gem. His vision correlation stat is higher than Pastore, Silvam Cazorla or Mata's. And he plays in the french ligue 1.

But Hazard according to my research plays predominantly where Villa plays for Barca, Left forward. Lille copies the Barca system. Gervihno(right) Sow(Middle) and Hazard(left) that is there basic set. With Gervinho and Hazard switching sometimes.

That said I believe he would be good on the right of a 3. The kid at Sochaux Marvin Martin, should also be looked at if we can't pull off Pastore. His stats are off the charts. And watching him for France a few days ago, you could see the intelligence in his pass and movement.

 

[niall_mcfc]

I think Hazard, Cazorla or Mata will be a good shout out right.

yes hazard dax carzola plays on the left mainly though but cud play right no doubt and matta is better in a free role id say hazard ,or nasri and pastore for attacking mid.

Nah, Carzola played mostly on the right when they are in a 442. Cazorla (right) Valero and Bruno (middle) and Cani (left). They used that formation predominantly. But when the play a 4312 with Valero behind the strikers Carzola does start in left Center mid. But he played more often on the right than left.

That said my thinking is having 3 free role guys who only start out on the right, center or left only on paper but really just drift across the attacking 3rd and bringing up the fullbacks for width.

Even though that sounds good and would work going forward we would struggle when defending. If you watch Silva last season when he started on the wing and then drifted in we got caught out with the oppositions full back pushing on leaving our full back with a 2 on 1 situation or we had NDJ come over to cover one of the wide players leaving someone free in the middle.

 

[Lmarkham-blueblood]

..............................hart.........................
Richards..kompany..lescott..contrão
............................de jong....................
.....................toure........Silva...............
........balotelli.........................Mata.....
..............................tevez .....................

 

[Dax777]

yes hazard dax carzola plays on the left mainly though but cud play right no doubt and matta is better in a free role id say hazard ,or nasri and pastore for attacking mid.

Nah, Carzola played mostly on the right when they are in a 442. Cazorla (right) Valero and Bruno (middle) and Cani (left). They used that formation predominantly. But when the play a 4312 with Valero behind the strikers Carzola does start in left Center mid. But he played more often on the right than left.

That said my thinking is having 3 free role guys who only start out on the right, center or left only on paper but really just drift across the attacking 3rd and bringing up the fullbacks for width.

Even though that sounds good and would work going forward we would struggle when defending. If you watch Silva last season when he started on the wing and then drifted in we got caught out with the oppositions full back pushing on leaving our full back with a 2 on 1 situation or we had NDJ come over to cover one of the wide players leaving someone free in the middle.

I understand your reservation, but in practice it is not really much of a problem.
Balo, SIlva and Yaya did it quite akwardly for a few games. They are not naturally predisposed to this. Spanish players are.

When we attack and lose it before it concludes in a shot, throw in, goal kick or goal, we get caught out anyways. Players move forward and move around when they have the ball and can't do anything about losing possession via interception or tackle. They get caught out. Whether you stayed on the right, left or Center when this happens is often irrelevant as you are quickly caught behind the ball. Where behind the ball you are positioned is perfuntory. The issue here is how do you deal with counter attacks, and mostly this has little to do with how you execute your attack.

The best way to deal with counters is to either track back from the zone you are already in, or Play the Barca trap. Barca uses the 10 second trap defense. When they lose possession, they attack the ball holder and try to trap him with multiple players, forcing him to either lose the ball or go backwards to find space. Both actions result in giving Barca the opportunity to reconfigure into their defensive stand.

City often doesn't deal with Counters well, regardless of if they are switching around in the attacking 3 or not.

Presumably, part of the problem is the mentality to defense that is pervasive in the English league. It is a glorifies the individual tackle. Getting stuck in, putting in hard tackles, being aggressive are all mantras in the English footballing lexicon. However the problem with this is that it is often individualistic in nature. Rather than following a system that will dispossess the opposition of the ball 85 percent of the time if everyone sticks to their duties, English football glorifies winning the ball back by individual effort.

A system that is grossly less effective than group defending. 1) each player is playing individually attempting to win a duel, 2) it is reactive as you have to see if the first guy fails to determine the next move.

Anyway, since City is also predisposed to the individual tackling philosophy the best way to do it, would be for the mids to just track back down the line of where the find themselves in relations to the other 2 attacking Mids when the loss of possession occured.

Thus, the farthest left assume the role of Left mid and tracks that line the most Central assumes the role of the Central mid and tracks that line and the most right assume the role and duty of the RM and tracks that line. Balo, Silva and Yaya did that well enough while moving around. Even Dzeko joined in one game and tracked the left lane as he was out there when the dispossesion occurred.

But overall, a seamless offensive Mid 3 aids your ability to break the opposition down by confusing the opposing defense, but really has little to no negative effect on your ability to defend on lost possessions. One might even argue it aids your defense by making it harder to lose possession in the first place

Structured movement is much more key for when defending, but not so much when attacking. The more structured you are offensively, the easier you are to defend most of the time.

 

[persvenality cult]

yes hazard dax carzola plays on the left mainly though but cud play right no doubt and matta is better in a free role id say hazard ,or nasri and pastore for attacking mid.

Nah, Carzola played mostly on the right when they are in a 442. Cazorla (right) Valero and Bruno (middle) and Cani (left). They used that formation predominantly. But when the play a 4312 with Valero behind the strikers Carzola does start in left Center mid. But he played more often on the right than left.

That said my thinking is having 3 free role guys who only start out on the right, center or left only on paper but really just drift across the attacking 3rd and bringing up the fullbacks for width.

Even though that sounds good and would work going forward we would struggle when defending. If you watch Silva last season when he started on the wing and then drifted in we got caught out with the oppositions full back pushing on leaving our full back with a 2 on 1 situation or we had NDJ come over to cover one of the wide players leaving someone free in the middle.

Agreed, it's a very difficult balance to achieve. The narrow midfield and the assignment of who covers the fullback caused many problems. One way to deal with it is to occupy their fullback so he is less likely to charge forward with impunity. Look at Everton away. Silva won all the plaudits but from memory he didn't so much as look at the left wing (his nominal starting position). Their goals came when their RB realised he had the freedom just to go forward again and again.

 

[Dax777]

Nah, Carzola played mostly on the right when they are in a 442. Cazorla (right) Valero and Bruno (middle) and Cani (left). They used that formation predominantly. But when the play a 4312 with Valero behind the strikers Carzola does start in left Center mid. But he played more often on the right than left.

That said my thinking is having 3 free role guys who only start out on the right, center or left only on paper but really just drift across the attacking 3rd and bringing up the fullbacks for width.

Even though that sounds good and would work going forward we would struggle when defending. If you watch Silva last season when he started on the wing and then drifted in we got caught out with the oppositions full back pushing on leaving our full back with a 2 on 1 situation or we had NDJ come over to cover one of the wide players leaving someone free in the middle.

Agreed, it's a very difficult balance to achieve. The narrow midfield and the assignment of who covers the fullback caused many problems. One way to deal with it is to occupy their fullback so he is less likely to charge forward with impunity. Look at Everton away. Silva won all the plaudits but from memory he didn't so much as look at the left wing (his nominal starting position). Their goals came when their RB realised he had the freedom just to go forward again and again.

Again this mistakes what you do when you are attacking with what you do when you defend. They are often not one and the same.

By the way Chickfly I tot we were having a cracking argument on some other thread last week but you never returned :(

I think I answered the question you posed above in my response above you.

 

[persvenality cult]

Even though that sounds good and would work going forward we would struggle when defending. If you watch Silva last season when he started on the wing and then drifted in we got caught out with the oppositions full back pushing on leaving our full back with a 2 on 1 situation or we had NDJ come over to cover one of the wide players leaving someone free in the middle.

Agreed, it's a very difficult balance to achieve. The narrow midfield and the assignment of who covers the fullback caused many problems. One way to deal with it is to occupy their fullback so he is less likely to charge forward with impunity. Look at Everton away. Silva won all the plaudits but from memory he didn't so much as look at the left wing (his nominal starting position). Their goals came when their RB realised he had the freedom just to go forward again and again.

Again this mistakes what you do when you are attacking with what you do when you defend. They are often not one and the same.

By the way Chickfly I tot we were having a cracking argument on some other thread last week but you never returned :(

I think I answered the question you posed above in my response above you.

Sorry, I'll dig it out tomorrow. There's been some good discussions on here that you might have missed, did you see the thread 'is mancini adapting his inter tactics'? Some cracking stuff in there about the basics of our system (It's easy to think of this as 4-2-3-1 but to my mind that entails lots of tactical choices that are quite different from our approach, I think we're closer to Barca's 4-3-3).

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185662" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185662</a>

(Ignore all the talk about the midfield diamonds, god knows we never even tried to do it on the pitch)

Having said that, I don't think this particular topic was covered. It has been covered at points in the media, from the first league game there were questions over who was supposed to cover wide positions and how they weren't getting tight enough. The problems associated with narrow midfield three were highlighted a few times since, and whilst it wasn't discussed around the time of the defeats to Everton and Liverpool, to me those games were perfect illustrations of us getting exactly that issue wrong, collectively and individually.

Basically I don't think there is an easy distinction between what you do in attack and defence, as evinced by the idea that the best defence may be to dominate possession. For the sakes of this debate, a fullback who's area is under repeated attack would have to be pretty stupid to bomb forward. If he realises his 'winger' is only bothering the central areas, then he's likely to push upfield. It's also simple topology; if the 'winger' is play-making through the centre, then he's also central when the play breaks down. If the midfield is also narrow then they can't stop the fullback breaking. 4-2-3-1 had a specific mechanism to combat this, using two dedicated holding players, as opposed to our one and a half....and that's one reason we aren't really 4-2-3-1.

The remaining problem with (what I recognise as true 4-2-3-1) was that it was held to lack width in attack, I can't remember/wasn't paying attention to just how opponents figured out how to stop the play, but as a particular system it did have it's day then fade rather quickly. What we tend to see is 4-5-1/4-3-3 with real wide men/strikers displaced onto the wing, sometimes 'working wingers', but usually NOT playmakers and supplementary midfielders. It's still the predominant tactical form in this league at least. We're kind of neither one thing nor the other. That thread is the best explanation of what we are, even if it doesn't tell you the story of how we're still struggling to get tight to the wide men on a regular basis, the part about Centre-backs defending the wings when we're fully on the attack ought to be food for thought.

 

[Dax777]

Sorry, I'll dig it out tomorrow. There's been some good discussions on here that you might have missed, did you see the thread 'is mancini adapting his inter tactics'? Some cracking stuff in there about the basics of our system (It's easy to think of this as 4-2-3-1 but to my mind that entails lots of tactical choices that are quite different from our approach, I think we're closer to Barca's 4-3-3).

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185662" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185662</a>

(Ignore all the talk about the midfield diamonds, god knows we never even tried to do it on the pitch)

When did that thread happen. I think I might have to resurrect it.

Having said that, I don't think this particular topic was covered. It has been covered at points in the media, from the first league game there were questions over who was supposed to cover wide positions and how they weren't getting tight enough. The problems associated with narrow midfield three were highlighted a few times since, and whilst it wasn't discussed around the time of the defeats to Everton and Liverpool, to me those games were perfect illustrations of us getting exactly that issue wrong, collectively and individually.

I think the problem often is one of players individually failing at there responsibilities, or frankly not adhering to there role in the system. As for the Liverpool game, I believe it was one of the few games in which we used an actual 442. Milner and Johnson were the wingers and Barry and Yaya the midfielders. Both Milner and Barry Hugged the wing often and we were outnumbered in central Midfield with Suarez Joining, Spearing and the Brazilian. But formation aside, we lost that game coz they came with energy and we did not respond. We were slow, sluggish and easy to defend, because there was no movement on offense.

Basically I don't think there is an easy distinction between what you do in attack and defence, as evinced by the idea that the best defence may be to dominate possession. For the sakes of this debate, a fullback who's area is under repeated attack would have to be pretty stupid to bomb forward. If he realises his 'winger' is only bothering the central areas, then he's likely to push upfield. It's also simple topology; if the 'winger' is play-making through the centre, then he's also central when the play breaks down. If the midfield is also narrow then they can't stop the fullback breaking

.
Okay let me respond to this part. I think there is a difference, or better put, there can be a difference. Lets take for example Barca's Trap defense. It doesn't matter what position you play, if you are close to the ball when possesion is lost, i.e. if you were a pass option at the time possesion was lost you are expected to immediately charge the ball carrier. If he is a fullback, DM or CD even better. All Barca players (Except the CD's for obvious reasons_ participate in this drill. The guy who loses the ball and his 2 most immediate pass options immediately attack the ball and try to win it back. This system works irrespective of where you move or are positioned. It is invariably keyed to where the ball is on the field. So in that system your offense has nothig to do with your defense.

As for teams that back off, the advantage of seamless movement (a neccesity for breaking down defenses) is to just pick your area of the field and defend it. It is quite simple, once posession is lost, the AM backs off to join the DMs in the middle and the narrow LM and RM Track any advancing from the Fullbacks. You don't need to be close early. You need to be close once in your final third. As For the idea of an advancing fullback. He is not going to advance when the opposition has the ball. So clearly any advancing has to wait till possession is gained by his team. And the fact that SIlva drifts inside doesn't mean the wide area is unused. That is where the fullback fills in. Forcing the Winger of the other team to cover. The other advantage of a narrow 3, is that it allows you to trap or zone quickly. Milner does this very effectively. If the ball is lost on Milner's wing, he banks hard to the inside and forces the offense to go down the line where they can be trapped. rather than giving them options to the line as well as the middle. This is where team defending comes in. A concept that exist regardless how you attack the opposition.

4-2-3-1 had a specific mechanism to combat this, using two dedicated holding players, as opposed to our one and a half....and that's one reason we aren't really 4-2-3-1.

So are you saying we play the 4231 poorly because of Barry or that we don't play it at all?

The remaining problem with (what I recognise as true 4-2-3-1) was that it was held to lack width in attack, I can't remember/wasn't paying attention to just how opponents figured out how to stop the play, but as a particular system it did have it's day then fade rather quickly. What we tend to see is 4-5-1/4-3-3 with real wide men/strikers displaced onto the wing, sometimes 'working wingers', but usually NOT playmakers and supplementary midfielders. It's still the predominant tactical form in this league at least. We're kind of neither one thing nor the other. That thread is the best explanation of what we are, even if it doesn't tell you the story of how we're still struggling to get tight to the wide men on a regular basis, the part about Centre-backs defending the wings when we're fully on the attack ought to be food for thought.

Yes, I agree that we played lots of formations and some poorly based on our personel and development. We certainly stated out with a 4312 or 433 early on in the season. But overtime we most resembled a 4231, with certain players playing there positions diferently. For example AJ always stayed very wide whenever he played. looking somethin like this

...............Dejong........Barry....................
Johnson.............Yaya.......Silva................

and sometimes with Balo on the left it looked more llke
.............................De Jong......................
..................................................Barry
...................Silva...............Yaya................
..............................Tevez...........Balotelli...

which suggested we were in some kind of slanted diamond 442. And for most of the season Barry always played slighly ahead of De Jong. But the most conceptually fitting formation for the 2nd part of our Season was a 4231

 

[Jumanji]

^Why? What's it about? Sorry, can't be arsed :D

 

[Dax777]

^Why? What's it about? Sorry, can't be arsed :D

Formations and tactics. But it isalready 26 pages long. So I guess I'd just be observing and reading.

 

[csit17]

----------hart----------

richards----kompany----lescott----kolorov

--------de jong--------yaya--------

sanchez-----silva-----mata

----------tevez----------

subs
taylor
toure
balotelli
dzeko
a johnson
m johnson
assulin

 

[Olmcfc]

-----------------Hart---------------

-Richards-Kompany-Lescott-Baines

---------------De Jong-------------

-Johnson------Toure-------Silva-

-----------Tevez---Dzeko---------

 

[mcfckb]

--------------Hart----------------

Richards--Kompany--Lescott--Clichy

-------------De Jong--------------

--------Silva---------Yaya---------

---Tevez--Villa--Balotelli-------

Subs:

Given
Kolo
Zabaletta
Kolerov
Milner
Johnson
Dzeko
Rodwell
Boyatta
Barry

 

[uncle b]

----------------------HART-------------------



RICHARDS---KOMPANY----LESCOTT-----BAINES



-------------------DE JONG-------------------



-----------SILVA-----------YAYA T------------



JOHNSON-----------------------------BALOTELLI




---------------TEVEZ/DZEKO----------------

 

[Any1aBlue]

----------hart----------

richards----kompany----lescott----kolorov

--------de jong--------yaya--------

sanchez-----silva-----mata

----------tevez----------

subs
taylor
toure
balotelli
dzeko
a johnson
m johnson
assulin

KOLAROV ??!! sort of makes a mockery of your whole thought process........he's rubbish and wont be our left back next season.

-- Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:08 pm --

----------------------HART-------------------



RICHARDS---KOMPANY----LESCOTT-----BAINES



-------------------DE JONG-------------------



-----------SILVA-----------YAYA T------------



JOHNSON-----------------------------BALOTELLI




---------------TEVEZ/DZEKO----------------

This is supposed to be a prediction of what the team will look like...........why on earth would mancini suddenly play only one holding MF player with the same defence?

-- Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:10 pm --

^
I do prefer Balotelli, but Mancini will not start him over Tevez regularly. Fact.
That is why my prediction is based on what I think will happen.

Regarding Kolarov, I /predict/ that Mancini will try to give him another year to bed in. Will it happen? Dunno.

Ideally, I'd prefer a Coentrao, but that's not happening.

You're wrong about Kolarov - I expect mancini's first signing to be a new left back..............and a new CB..................

-- Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:11 pm --

.......................................HART.........................................

RICHARDS........KOMPANY................NEW CB.............NEW LB....

.....................DE JONG................YAYA.............................

SANCHEZ......................SNEIJDER.........................SILVA

....................................TEVEZ..........................................

PERFECT! Send this to MCFC now!

-- Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:12 pm --

...I'll put one out there for debate - has Yaya ever been considered a centre forward? Im serious...

I think he could play there in a crisis, as he has a good touch, finish, strength and vision...

Only in a crisis though as his midfield runs are undefendable, he's way better coming from behind the striker(s), he has a great defensive mind as well, but I feel his talent was MASSIVELY wasted at Barca playing just infront of the CBs all the time...but then again, they had no other great DMs at the time...

He's one of those players that can play anywhere; CM/AM/DM/CB/RB/CF...

What a player eh? And I grew up thinking Barton was the best we'd ever get :D

A good read......................right up until the bit about Barton, then it all went wrong.

-- Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:13 pm --

...............................Hart....................................
Richards............Kompany....Lescott................Kolarov
.....................De Jong...................Barry...............
....................................Toure...............................
Johnson.....................Tevez............................Silva

................................Given....................................
Onuoha................Boateng.....Toure...........Bridge...........
..........................Zabaleta.............Milner...............
...................................Balotelli.........................
Wright Phillips....................Dzeko..................Bellamy

Subs: Taylor, Adebayor, Jo

Add the kids... Boyata, Weiss, Wabara, Cunningham, Ibrahim, Nimley

Sell: Caceido, RSC

There you go, not a penny spent and we still have a squad capable of top 4!

nonsence<br /><br />-- Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:15 pm --<br /><br />

Before I sleep, lets hope and dream what our starting eleven will be next season:

----------------Hart---------

VDW----Kompany---Richards----Enrique

---------------Yaya---------------

--------Pastore-------Silva---------

AJ-------------Tevez---------Hazard

what on earth is this mess? As its wimbledon week - YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS?!