Sturgeon wants another referendum

[Damocles]

You need to be English and walk about Scotland or go on holiday and stay in a hotel that is majority Scottish as i have, i also don't hate anybody, i just don't like double standards

I go Scotland every year and have done for around 25 years and not been treated badly. Definitely had a bit of banter about being English and historical battles or sports results but nothing with any edge to it. In fact one of my favourite parts of going out to the pub in Scotland is finding the drunk who can't do basic sums but somehow has an encyclopaedic knowledge of Scottish military history.

Love Scotland, great people.

 

[Damocles]

It's classic working class turning against other working class people for having the audacity to want the opportunity to better themselves. Most of Manchester will have more in common with us lot than they would with many from the South East for example. Get shafted in much the same way as us time after time, but when it comes to Scotland wanting to do something about it the same people jump to the defence of London, Downing Street and the fucking tories. Mind boggling.

I'd like to point out that your ruling party so to speak are literally nationalists; the exact thing that the US and many other places get criticised for.

I don't like the SNP because they're left wing nationalists and the last time the world had them we invented fascism then national socialism. Nationalism is the sickness of politics, in every possible form.

 

[cibaman]

The same principals May is espousing are the same case for indeoendence.

Manifesto commitments have a mandate. To deny that denies the legitimacy of that principal.

She us arguing to leave EU fir self determination, controlling the borders. Leaving a market . All because the people voted for it.

Well we voted a party that specifically stated take us out against our will and against the promises made then game on.

She wants one rule for her and if she goes on with that Sturgeon will call her out and knowing that May will offer one after Brexit.

We won't agree because we don't want out.

We have the right to decide timescale. Out Parliament will vote next week. If they do May will be in a situation where she delegitimises a parliaments wishes and that would expose her and give her nit a keg to stand on.

I don't think she will do that. If she does it gives the people of Scotland a clear signal that we may all be equal, but some of us are more equal than others.

That will and does fuck us right off.

I hope she does though. There's nothing better for us being able to point at double standards and having just to shut up.

I dont think you have an absolute right to decide the timescale. A Scottish referendum doesn't just involve the Scots. The UK government has an obligation to take part in the process. It's necessary for them to set out their position on all of the issues that would need to be addressed after a Yes vote such as the currency, trade arrangements, defense etc etc. Even if the UK government doesn't actively lobby in favour of the union, it still has to devote a huge amount of time effort to ensure that the Scots can make an informed decision. And if there is yes vote, that immediately generates a massive workload for the UK government to ensure that the break up can take place smoothly and speedily.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for May to argue that the Scottish referendum campaign shouldnt take place just as Brexit negotiations are coming to head, or to argue that the UK government wouldnt be able to devote all its attention to the break up of the union at the same time that the UK exits the EU.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I know there are some arseholes but the vast majority if people don't feel that way. I have tackled these type if pricks everywhere I come across them.

We cannot be held up as basically racists because we have some. Focus on the vast majority that hate these cunts that shame us.

As for the ref, I think it is justified. I am not convinced we will win as people might feel both are too scary.
I understand that. I understand the divisions, but surely we can't be expected just to shut up because there will be strife.

That's life. Nothing comes easy. And nobody shoukd be expected to take a back seat because it's difficult.

An eternity of Tory rule will be confirmed when Labour are decimated at the next GE.

That prospect is a hole in the head we cannot accept. If we do, we deserve all we get.

It will be down to the least bad choice. I cannot foresee that we will have all the answers for Brexit when we have a choice but there is no chance we will have clarity on an independent scotlands place in Europe, economic plan and currency at that time. I would be more comfortable with a referendum if it were based on facts and a reasonable assessment of consequences. We both know that it won't be and the same untruths on both sides will be told. Makes me genuinely sad as a Scot and very pessimistic about the future of Scotland and the UK. Just so you know where I am coming from, having lived and worked in both Scotland and England, loving an English football team, I have always felt a citizen of the Uk as strongly as being Scottish. For all our differences, I emotionally believe we are stronger together than apart.

 

[CityStu]

I dont think you have an absolute right to decide the timescale. A Scottish referendum doesn't just involve the Scots. The UK government has an obligation to take part in the process. It's necessary for them to set out their position on all of the issues that would need to be addressed after a Yes vote such as the currency, trade arrangements, defense etc etc. Even if the UK government doesn't actively lobby in favour of the union, it still has to devote a huge amount of time effort to ensure that the Scots can make an informed decision. And if there is yes vote, that immediately generates a massive workload for the UK government to ensure that the break up can take place smoothly and speedily.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for May to argue that the Scottish referendum campaign shouldnt take place just as Brexit negotiations are coming to head, or to argue that the UK government wouldnt be able to devote all its attention to the break up of the union at the same time that the UK exits the EU.

More than that, it's unfair on Scots to have a referendum when they don't know what the UK outside the EU, or the EU without the UK will look like. At least when that information would be available for people to judge within a few years, and they only had an independence referendum a few years ago.

 

[Xiphos]

I go Scotland every year and have done for around 25 years and not been treated badly. Definitely had a bit of banter about being English and historical battles or sports results but nothing with any edge to it. In fact one of my favourite parts of going out to the pub in Scotland is finding the drunk who can't do basic sums but somehow has an encyclopaedic knowledge of Scottish military history.

Love Scotland, great people.

Good for you, i was harangued out of a pub in Eyemouth for daring to order a lager and a GnT in a thick Manchester accent, whats worse is they called me Jimmy

 

[blue cigar]

It's in the manifesto. It has the vote behind it. End of. Your position was based on alternative facts.

Read the manifesto before you start claiming stuff that is just wrong.

And your claim about hatred being the motive us a fucking lie and a slur on Scottish people and living here you know that's not true. Fucking shocking way to speak about people you live amongst.

We will leave it there debating wise though. I showed you in black and white your ignorance is your problem. Every other **** knew and voted them in.

Your point about they would do it anyway? Fuck sake is that the best you can come up with.

They can do it because they pledged to.

Remember also a swing of 300,000 wins it for us. How many voted No because of leaving EU as we were threatened by?

Every age group apart from the over 65 voted a majority yes.

That tells you the future. Unless you just make up a new one like you dud with your points that I showed were plucked straight out your arse.

Catch ye

Yeh best you leave it there. If you deny the snp are anti english then you are more ignorant than i thought. If you think a couple of lines in a manifesto entitles sturgeon to ignore 2 million no voters then there is no hope for you. Keep fighting the good fight, recite the treaty of arbroath and put some yes stickers in your car.
Word of advice afore ye go...get yer head out of yer arse and take a look at the real world kid.
Sore Alba.

 

[blueparrot]

Good for you, i was harangued out of a pub in Eyemouth for daring to order a lager and a GnT in a thick Manchester accent, whats worse is they called me Jimmy

Not had any problems in Eyemouth, and there are quite a few English accents in Eyemouth pubs, it's fairly common to hear English accents in pubs around the Borders.

 

[Xiphos]

Not had any problems in Eyemouth, and there are quite a few English accents in Eyemouth pubs, it's fairly common to hear English accents in pubs around the Borders.

This was over 30 years ago, probably changed for the better, it couldn't have got any worse though, my mate stuck his job out for 3 months then came back to sunny Manchester

 

[Magicpole]

It will be down to the least bad choice. I cannot foresee that we will have all the answers for Brexit when we have a choice but there is no chance we will have clarity on an independent scotlands place in Europe, economic plan and currency at that time. I would be more comfortable with a referendum if it were based on facts and a reasonable assessment of consequences. We both know that it won't be and the same untruths on both sides will be told. Makes me genuinely sad as a Scot and very pessimistic about the future of Scotland and the UK. Just so you know where I am coming from, having lived and worked in both Scotland and England, loving an English football team, I have always felt a citizen of the Uk as strongly as being Scottish. For all our differences, I emotionally believe we are stronger together than apart.

I felt the same way too up until about six years ago.

I hear ye

 

[purplenose]

I go Scotland every year and have done for around 25 years and not been treated badly. Definitely had a bit of banter about being English and historical battles or sports results but nothing with any edge to it. In fact one of my favourite parts of going out to the pub in Scotland is finding the drunk who can't do basic sums but somehow has an encyclopaedic knowledge of Scottish military history.

Love Scotland, great people.

Got to say my experience is much the same as yours. I have been to a few parts of Scotland and never found any hint of anything other than a pretty warm welcome. As for Scottish pubs I have found more often than not you will take some stick if you are English in the same way a Scot would get it down here. nothing more than fun that should be gladly indulged in.

I am sure that there are people and places that may be very anti English but a minority I am sure. There will be pubs that you walk into and it becomes apparent its best to leave, just like in England where not being "a local" is enough to make you unwelcome...probably nothing to do wish being English. Such places are rare and like in England in areas that you probably would have no inclination or reason to visit.

 

[blue cigar]

Most places,most people and pubs are fine and full of warm friendly people.
Snp nationaliats, certain pubs in the shires and certain workplaces are the opposite. This is being stoked further by nationalism.

 

[Centurions]

This was over 30 years ago, probably changed for the better, it couldn't have got any worse though, my mate stuck his job out for 3 months then came back to sunny Manchester

I've lived up here for 26 years now and never had any trouble whatsoever. Only 4 years or so more and I'd have spent half my life here, I've not lost my accent one iota either so people are never in any doubt I'm Manc born & bred (except for two idiots, one who thought I was a Yorkshireman and one who thought I was a scouse).

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Got to say my experience is much the same as yours. I have been to a few parts of Scotland and never found any hint of anything other than a pretty warm welcome. As for Scottish pubs I have found more often than not you will take some stick if you are English in the same way a Scot would get it down here. nothing more than fun that should be gladly indulged in.

I am sure that there are people and places that may be very anti English but a minority I am sure. There will be pubs that you walk into and it becomes apparent its best to leave, just like in England where not being "a local" is enough to make you unwelcome...probably nothing to do wish being English. Such places are rare and like in England in areas that you probably would have no inclination or reason to visit.

If it was as a tourist you will get a warm welcome, as their tourist industry is a big money spinner for their economy. I lived and worked in the NE of Scotland for a number of years, and encountered some pretty hostile anti-English stuff. One incident that stands out was when my wife applied for a job at a big supermarket. She went to the interview, and as soon as she opened her mouth (with her N.W English accent), the atmosphere in the room quickly went from fairly friendly to pretty hostile. She didn't get the job.

I don't think it's all bad, but deep down, there is just that whiff of an undercurrent of racism amongst certain communities North of the border as there is South of the border.

 

[Magicpole]

I dont think you have an absolute right to decide the timescale. A Scottish referendum doesn't just involve the Scots. The UK government has an obligation to take part in the process. It's necessary for them to set out their position on all of the issues that would need to be addressed after a Yes vote such as the currency, trade arrangements, defense etc etc. Even if the UK government doesn't actively lobby in favour of the union, it still has to devote a huge amount of time effort to ensure that the Scots can make an informed decision. And if there is yes vote, that immediately generates a massive workload for the UK government to ensure that the break up can take place smoothly and speedily.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for May to argue that the Scottish referendum campaign shouldnt take place just as Brexit negotiations are coming to head, or to argue that the UK government wouldnt be able to devote all its attention to the break up of the union at the same time that the UK exits the EU.

You make valid reasonable points. We would point out we didn't get us into Brexit and want no part of it, and if that us the choice if the rest if the uk then we have a choice to call it once the terms will be known, which will be before the ref and before ratification.

It is unlikely the deal proposed will be accepted and we will point out, it's bad enough as it stands and this us before concessions are made.

Politically it is the right time for us. I think if you step in our shoes you would agree. We didn't want the Brexit situation but we are duty bound to exploit it. That can seem harsh but we have been dismissed and none of out compromises we have offered have even been considered.

We must act. It's as simple as that and rightly point out the mess of Brexit is not of our doing. If it causes turmoil and the breakup of the uk then Cameron should have thought of that.

We will have the gov fighting on two fronts, two that they created. They deserve no quarter. They gave us none. We will rightly say, well you should have thought of that, shouldn't you.

Remember also we will have to contend with all the usual suspects being brought in to try and terrify us. Why should we cut that type of opponent any slack?

They terrified our pensioners by lying that they would lose their pensions . That's why labour up here are viewed as traitors.

They acted like utter cunts so we are in no mind to help them out by giving them a free run.

 

[purplenose]

You make valid reasonable points. We would point out we didn't get us into Brexit and want no part of it, and if that us the choice if the rest if the uk then we have a choice to call it once the terms will be known, which will be before the ref and before ratification.

It is unlikely the deal proposed will be accepted and we will point out, it's bad enough as it stands and this us before concessions are made.

Politically it is the right time for us. I think if you step in our shoes you would agree. We didn't want the Brexit situation but we are duty bound to exploit it. That can seem harsh but we have been dismissed and none of out compromises we have offered have even been considered.

We must act. It's as simple as that and rightly point out the mess of Brexit is not of our doing. If it causes turmoil and the breakup of the uk then Cameron should have thought of that.

We will have the gov fighting on two fronts, two that they created. They deserve no quarter. They gave us none. We will rightly say, well you should have thought of that, shouldn't you.

Remember also we will have to contend with all the usual suspects being brought in to try and terrify us. Why should we cut that type of opponent any slack?

They terrified our pensioners by lying that they would lose their pensions . That's why labour up here are viewed as traitors.

They acted like utter cunts so we are in no mind to help them out by giving them a free run.

I have to agree with you on the point of Brexit in so much as Scotland voted to remain, therefore personally do not see why Scotland shouldnt have the choice to remain as part of the UK.

Question for you, are you of the opinion Scotland would be better off as part of Europe?

 

[blueparrot]

One thing that isn't being talked about is, all 3 devolved parliaments are asking for the same separate deal to England with access to the free market and free movement and the UK government won't have it. The biggest weapon the three governments have is the threat of Scottish independence, neither N.Ireland nor Wales are yet able to use that. All that's being asked for at the moment is the power to call a referendum.
The government could kill it stone dead by at least considering a different deal that has been put forward by Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland. One that would give eu citizens rights to work and residency in those parts of the UK but not England.

 

[Damocles]

I have to agree with you on the point of Brexit in so much as Scotland voted to remain, therefore personally do not see why Scotland should have the choice to remain as part of the UK.

I don't believe Scotland should leave the UK and think it's tantamount to economic suicide for them to do so as long as they aren't guaranteed a place in the EU.

Might just be me but I cannot foresee any circumstances in which Spain would allow Scotland into the EU and the vote has to be unanimous. It would require either a change of legislation, a change of the political landscape in Spain/Belgium/couple of other countries or a change in mindset.

What we're seeing at the moment is a descent of Europe into nationalism. British nationalism, Scottish nationalism, Flemish, Transylvanian affecting both Hungary and Romania, and of course Catalonian and Venetian nationalism. Many of the major countries in the EU are going to have huge problems with secessionist movements over the coming few years due, in part, to the Scottish nationalist vote and many of them have a strong political will to keep them down.

Just as the Kings of Europe once colluded to keep down the will of the people and retain their monarchies, the major countries will do so again in order to keep their administrative districts as large and collective as possible.

We've been here before when Europe descended into nationalism and it didn't work out very well for all concerned then either. You have to imagine that AT LEAST Spain and Italy will really have a problem with allowing a secessionist Government into the EU, let alone the problems in the Baltic region or Northern Europe/the Netherlands.

It's not too much of a stretch to suggest that the EU could well look like the Holy Roman Empire again before too long if these nationalist movements continue to be embraced.

 

[Magicpole]

I have to agree with you on the point of Brexit in so much as Scotland voted to remain, therefore personally do not see why Scotland shouldnt have the choice to remain as part of the UK.

Question for you, are you of the opinion Scotland would be better off as part of Europe?

Yes I do. That doesn't mean we stop trading with each other. Let's face it. In the event of WTO rules the uk need all the trade they can get, as will we.

This also applies to sharing the £. It's in both our interests that we use it then our resources also underpin it's strength. If we are refused it, it will plummet. It already has through Brexit and another fall will cripple the economy. We need to be smart. It serves no purpose other than revenge and spite.

Things will be bad enough. We shouldn't shoot ourselves in the head on top of what we all face.

 

[blueparrot]

I don't believe Scotland should leave the UK and think it's tantamount to economic suicide for them to do so as long as they aren't guaranteed a place in the EU.

I don't believe a referendum will happen without a guarantee. Sturgeon knows she can't win without that. She isn't going to go into a referendum she doesn't think she can win.