Sturgeon wants another referendum

BlueHammer85 said:
The exit negotiations will stretch long after Article 50 is triggered - they can not sit around being told to shut up whilst letting the Torys get everything they want , we should continue with the Brexit negotiations without Scotland's involvement and meantime let them have there 2nd independent vote basis this, SNP won there election on the premise they would have 2nd referendum if we Brexit and like we often repeat, the will of the people should not be ignored.
Click to expand...

Correct. The will of the U.K. people is to leave the EU and get the best possible Brexit deal.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Can i ask what bit of the debate before the referendum did you not understand where Cameron and all the uk establishment plus the EU said there would be no half measures. Cameron got no concessions whatsoever. It could not have been made any clearer that we were voting for hard brexit or to stay in the EU. We voted for the former. To say you were not informed of that is frankly just nonsense.
Click to expand...

So many lies and untruths were told before the referendum, I don't know if anyone really knew what they were voting for.

The lies and untruths are still ongoing as well.

None of us have got a clue what will happen after we exit the EU.

It's not nonsense to say we weren't informed, but it is nonsense to say we were informed.

We won't know the reality of our divorce from the EU until it happens. It might be good, it might be bad.

Who knows?

Nobody.
 
sir baconface said:
Correct. The will of the U.K. people is to leave the EU and get the best possible Brexit deal.
Click to expand...

and if the best possible deal can not be achieved ? and if closer to the time it looks like we are heading for disaster, job losses, economic turmoil etc ?
we should just go ahead with it regardless ?
If public opinion changes and the majority demand a second referendum, it would be undemocratic to ignore that. All hypothetical of course - but the main point is you cant simply say we had a vote and thats it no matter what.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
and if the best possible deal can not be achieved ? and if closer to the time it looks like we are heading for disaster, job losses, economic turmoil etc ?
we should just go ahead with it regardless ?
If public opinion changes and the majority demand a second referendum, it would be undemocratic to ignore that. All hypothetical of course - but the main point is you cant simply say we had a vote and thats it no matter what.
Click to expand...

Agreed, elections and referendums are snap shots in time. Times change.
 
The perfect fumble said:
The thread is missing the bigger picture, concentrating on Pounds, Shillings and Pence, no one shouts "Cry Freedom and Cheaper Mortgages!".

Sturgeon's plan is all about nationalism, grievance and ignorance.

Sturgeon knows she has a core group of support in Scotland for independence, infused with a desire for self determination and a loathing for the bastards in Westminster, but it is too small to win a referendum. She also knows there is a core group who wouldn't vote for independence if you offered them a lifetime supply of free sex and ice cream, they are beyond persuading.

And then there's the rest, a group whose fear of falling of an economic cliff deters them from even flirting with the idea of going it alone, or have a strong affinity to the United kingdom, or a strong sense of Britishness, or a myriad mishmash of other reasons for wanting to stay inside the UK. Maybe they are emotionally or cultural attached to the island as a whole, or see their own self interest best served by staying in the UK, or love the Queen! I don't know, but I bet she does.

The SNP are many things, but they're not stupid. Sturgeon knew that May would refuse to allow another referendum, it was not going to happen, she just wanted to force May to turn it down, a battle line drawn, another notch on the grievance pole. She's betting on a Brexit shit storm and with every factory closure, every empty office block, ever rise in food prices she'll point a finger at Westminster, drip, drip, she'll work on those who see their economic security threatened by the English Brexit.

When the reality of what we decided to do last summer seeps in and the consequences begin to have an effect on the streets she'll milk it for all its worth. After all these are the tactics the Europhobes used for years against the EU, she's just using them against England (sorry Wales you don't count) and not England as it is, but a particular warped caricature of a Westminster/Southern Counties Tory England.

Whether Scotland can go it alone or not is a ridiculous question, of course it can, at a cost. At the moment too many people north of the border, in the group who might be persuaded are unconvinced, they know there will be pain. But as many leavers stated in the Brexit forum, they were willing to take the Brexit pain to return sovereignty to this country to free themselves from our Brussels overlords! So why not the free Scots?

So Sturgeon will move the argument further and further away from the economic (while blaming all economic misfortune on the English Brexit). She'll highlight every cack-handed decision, blame every misfortune on English perfidy, she'll lie, she'll exaggerate, she'll dissemble, she'll create a sense of Scotland under siege from those who wish her ill! How Scotland is being dragged against her will over a cliff, how things would be so much better if only Scotland were in charge of her own destiny and facts and figures showing otherwise will be treated in the same way as EU remainer facts and figures were, nothing more than doom mongering! The weasel words of "English experts" with their hidden agendas, until eventually the Scots will become tired of experts (copyright Michael Gove) in an ignorance is strength kind of way.

Sturgeon is using the same tactics north of the border as Farage and Johnson and all the other Brexit lying scoundrels did during the EU referendum. She'll use all their tactics and more to change the mind-set of those whose minds can be changed.

In the end you have to ask yourself how long before a majority of Scots think.... I didn't vote for those Tory wankers, I didn't vote for austerity, I didn't vote for Brexit and I definitely didn't vote for a hard Brexit, fuck It we're off!


Can't be long before we see a bus in Edinburgh emblazoned with "Scottish Oil Will Save The NHS".
Click to expand...

Can't be long before we see a bus in Edinburgh emblazoned with "Scottish Oil Will Save The NHS".

Eh no. That won't happen.


"In the end you have to ask yourself how long before a majority of Scots think.... I didn't vote for those Tory wankers, I didn't vote for austerity, I didn't vote for Brexit and I definitely didn't vote for a hard Brexit, fuck It we're off!"

That's it in't nutshell lad.
 
I would urge all those getting their knickers in a twist over Scottish referendum 2.0 to read some of the coverage today.

This was all about low politics, framing the debate now and to come. Sturgeon looked in the cupboard and saw there was not enough "us and them". So she chose the appropriate moment and stocked up.



 
BlueHammer85 said:
and if the best possible deal can not be achieved ? and if closer to the time it looks like we are heading for disaster, job losses, economic turmoil etc ?
we should just go ahead with it regardless ?
If public opinion changes and the majority demand a second referendum, it would be undemocratic to ignore that. All hypothetical of course - but the main point is you cant simply say we had a vote and thats it no matter what.
Click to expand...


What I recall is that the Scots were told this was a once in a generation vote on Independence and Alex Salmond and the SNP agreed and the Scots voted to remain

The British public was told that the referendum on Brexit was a once in a generation vote and the majority voted to leave
 
Magicpole said:
Can't be long before we see a bus in Edinburgh emblazoned with "Scottish Oil Will Save The NHS".

Eh no. That won't happen.


"In the end you have to ask yourself how long before a majority of Scots think.... I didn't vote for those Tory wankers, I didn't vote for austerity, I didn't vote for Brexit and I definitely didn't vote for a hard Brexit, fuck It we're off!"

That's it in't nutshell lad.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I don't think we'll see a bus covered in crass political messages quite like that one. Sturgeon is a canny politicians, she's played a blinder forcing May on the defensive and in doing so framed the debate just the way she wants it.

May is now talking about no Scottish referendum for six years! That's a very small once in a generation gap!

Sturgeon 1 May 0
 
The perfect fumble said:
Agreed, I don't think we'll see a bus covered in crass political messages quite like that one. Sturgeon is a canny politicians, she's played a blinder forcing May on the defensive and in doing so framed the debate just the way she wants it.

May is now talking about no Scottish referendum for six years! That's a very small once in a generation gap!

Sturgeon 1 May 0
Click to expand...

Unless May's playing a long game. Six years would take it past the next Scottish government elections, at which the Tories could offer an independence referendum (arguing for the continuation of the union) and better governance of Scotland's public services (which sold be easy as the SNP are doing a shite job of it).

May's come out fighting on Brexit and I don't see why she couldn't do the same with Scotland.
 
So if we get another tory govt in 2021 does that mean Another referendum?
2 million no voters are being ignored,sturgeon governs solely for independence and to be rid of the english,if people cannot see this they are plain stupid. Worse financial conditions than 2014,still no clarity on a currency and wanting to be rid of their biggest trading partner..hmm.
 
CityStu said:
Unless May's playing a long game. Six years would take it past the next Scottish government elections, at which the Tories could offer an independence referendum (arguing for the continuation of the union) and better governance of Scotland's public services (which sold be easy as the SNP are doing a shite job of it).

May's come out fighting on Brexit and I don't see why she couldn't do the same with Scotland.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I often wonder why I never see lone United supporters covered top to toe in red, singing Glory, Glory Man Utd in the Colin Bell stand.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Oh yeah, I often wonder why I never see lone United supporters covered top to toe in red, singing Glory, Glory Man Utd in the Colin Bell stand.
Click to expand...

I appreciate it does seem daft, but the SNP's record at governing is pretty awful (terrible schools and roads from what I remember reading) and Labour aren't going to challenge them. Ruth Davidson is popular too.
 
CityStu said:
I appreciate it does seem daft, but the SNP's record at governing is pretty awful (terrible schools and roads from what I remember reading) and Labour aren't going to challenge them. Ruth Davidson is popular too.
Click to expand...

You and I might disagree on the post Brexit landscape, but even if you believe in sunny uplands you'll need binoculars to see them six years from now. Ruth Davidson might be popular, but she's popular with those that don't matter, the only people who matter are those that can be convinced.

Stagnant wages, cuts, job loses, all the fault of Westminster! My cat could put a pretty convincing narrative to win Scottish referendum 2.0 against a backdrop like that.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Agreed, I don't think we'll see a bus covered in crass political messages quite like that one. Sturgeon is a canny politicians, she's played a blinder forcing May on the defensive and in doing so framed the debate just the way she wants it.

May is now talking about no Scottish referendum for six years! That's a very small once in a generation gap!

Sturgeon 1 May 0
Click to expand...


May is now talking about no Scottish referendum for six years! That's a very small once in a generation gap!

That comment by Salmond was Salmond a one vote Scot.

How can any one person set a time?

He had no right to unilaterally declare anything. Made a lot of people in the Yes coalition very angry.

Every age group apart from the over 65's voted Yes. 76% of them voted No and swung it.

We will be four years down the line with the natural decline in that vote aligned to more young people able to vote and polls suggest this group are in a healthy maj for yes.

The swing we needed to win last time was just 300,000 votes

That's do able. The major fear I have is people might think Brexit and Indy at the same time is too scary and Project Fear will be bigger and nastier than ever to prey on that.

One thing I can guarantee you. Labour will not stand shoukder to shoukder with the Tories again. It destroyed them last time. A repeat will put them into the political extinction zone.

Economic hardship is coming to these islands with big tacketty boots regardless of what we choose.

The choice then is who do you trust to have our interests and the society the maj want.

Tories or ourselves?

Hmmmm
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top