Sturgeon wants another referendum

Magicpole said:
May is now talking about no Scottish referendum for six years! That's a very small once in a generation gap!

That comment by Salmond was Salmond a one vote Scot.

How can any one person set a time?

He had no right to unilaterally declare anything. Made a lot of people in the Yes coalition very angry.

Every age group apart from the over 65's voted Yes. 76% of them voted No and swung it.

We will be four years down the line with the natural decline in that vote aligned to more young people able to vote and polls suggest this group are in a healthy maj for yes.

The swing we needed to win last time was just 300,000 votes

That's do able. The major fear I have is people might think Brexit and Indy at the same time is too scary and Project Fear will be bigger and nastier than ever to prey on that.

One thing I can guarantee you. Labour will not stand shoukder to shoukder with the Tories again. It destroyed them last time. A repeat will put them into the political extinction zone.

Economic hardship is coming to these islands with big tacketty boots regardless of what we choose.

The choice then is who do you trust to have our interests and the society society the maj want.

Tories or ourselves?

Hmmmm
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If you're in the EU you aren't governing yourselves mate.
 
CityStu said:
I appreciate it does seem daft, but the SNP's record at governing is pretty awful (terrible schools and roads from what I remember reading) and Labour aren't going to challenge them. Ruth Davidson is popular too.
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That's not accurate at all. We are managing a £3b austerity cut and the Gap in provision is down to the Tories.

To suggest we will vote Tory? Fumble was nearly right. You would have more chance of the Orange Order buying season tickets for Celtic than them winning Holyrood.
 
@BluePhil8 said:
If you're in the EU you aren't governing yourselves mate.
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That's an argument for another thread already going. And isn't true anyway. We are not brainwashed into the EU control every aspect of your life shite .

And even if that was true? Bottom line, EU or Tories?

Again, hmmm
 
BlueHammer85 said:
and if the best possible deal can not be achieved ? and if closer to the time it looks like we are heading for disaster, job losses, economic turmoil etc ?
we should just go ahead with it regardless ?
If public opinion changes and the majority demand a second referendum, it would be undemocratic to ignore that. All hypothetical of course - but the main point is you cant simply say we had a vote and thats it no matter what.
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Well, yes. That's the whole point about us voting to leave the EU to trade with the world.

The success of 'Brexit' is not, nor should it be seen to be, tied to whatever deal we make with the EU. Granted it would be beneficial to both parties that a satisfactory deal is concluded but if it isn't it should in no way be seen that means we rejoin the EU. "We voted to leave the EU but didn't get a good trade deal so we should not leave"?

No., that's not how it works or what we who voted to leave the bloc voted for. If the EU and the UK fail to reach a deal, we go in search of other deals with other nations around the world. That's what we wanted. To re-emphasise the point, the success of Brexit is not tied solely to our future relationship with the EU.

If public opinion does change then yes, there should be another referendum, however I doubt anyone would be convinced to rejoin the EU in it's current form. But the SNP are ignoring the Scottish voters who also voted to leave and voted to remain in the UK. The Scottish Referendum made it clear that a vote to leave the EU was a distinct possibility. The Scottish voters knew that the UK leaving the EU and Scotland being taken out was a possibility if they voted to remain part of the UK. Using it now as an excuse to hold a second referendum is dishonest on their part.
 
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Fowlers Penalty Miss said:
So many lies and untruths were told before the referendum, I don't know if anyone really knew what they were voting for.

The lies and untruths are still ongoing as well.

None of us have got a clue what will happen after we exit the EU.

It's not nonsense to say we weren't informed, but it is nonsense to say we were informed.

We won't know the reality of our divorce from the EU until it happens. It might be good, it might be bad.

Who knows?

Nobody.
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As we haven't left yet I don't think you can say with certainty that thone campaigning to leave lied. Sure when we do and if promises are broken then they are culpable. But you can definitely say the remain side lied or were grossly incompetent as none of their immediate doom and gloom predictions have come to fruition so far.
You can also equally say that those that voted remain don't exactly know what they are voting for as the EU is certainly evolving , changing and expanding and not always necessarily in the best interests of the uk.

The point I was making is the likes of Farron Clegg and even Sturgeon etc are now seemingly campaigning for a half and half measure of staying in bits of the EU. But that was never an option, it was made perfectly clear by all sides before the referendum to everyone that it was full Brexit or remain. That was what people voted for. How that works out no one will know until five years down the line but that is equally true of staying the EU as they have many problems. Personally I am optimistic that things will be much better for the uk.
 
Magicpole said:
That's an argument for another thread already going. And isn't true anyway. We are not brainwashed into the EU control every aspect of your life shite .

And even if that was true? Bottom line, EU or Tories?

Again, hmmm
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No, instead you're brainwashed that the English control every aspect of your life shite, whilst the English are brainwashed that Brussels controls every aspect of our lives.

You want to be autonomous with your own military, own currency, own health service, own Navy? Fine, go ahead. Every nation has that right. Seems daft to be desperate to leave the UK to join the failing EU though.
 
@BluePhil8 said:
No, instead you're brainwashed that the English control every aspect of your life shite, whilst the English are brainwashed that Brussels controls every aspect of our lives.

You want to be autonomous with your own military, own currency, own health service, own Navy? Fine, go ahead. Every nation has that right. Seems daft to be desperate to leave the UK to join the failing EU though.
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Again, the assumption that the EU us failing us not our experience, hence 62% voting to remain. We don't buy that. We know it needs to be improved but not that it's failing.

It's not being controlled by English or EU it's about us saying we can do this better. The added variable of eternal Tory rule is not one we want.

Tories to hell with you jack we're ok philosophy, is not what we are about.
 
Magicpole said:
Again, the assumption that the EU us failing us not our experience, hence 62% voting to remain. We don't buy that. We know it needs to be improved but not that it's failing.

It's not being controlled by English or EU it's about us saying we can do this better. The added variable of eternal Tory rule is not one we want.

Tories to hell with you jack we're ok philosophy, is not what we are about.
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I'm just jealous really mate, I'm nothern and wish we could have dominion of ourselves.
 
Magicpole said:
Again, the assumption that the EU us failing us not our experience, hence 62% voting to remain. We don't buy that. We know it needs to be improved but not that it's failing.

It's not being controlled by English or EU it's about us saying we can do this better. The added variable of eternal Tory rule is not one we want.

Tories to hell with you jack we're ok philosophy, is not what we are about.
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Answer me this magic. Would you like the SNP to raise taxes in Scotland to support services there or are you happy with sturgeon demanding even more from the rest of the uk. Remember much more money comes from the uk tory government you hate that the EU you love. The grossy unfair Barnett formula has been continued by successive governments labour and Tory. Presumably you would like it scrapped immediately so you can stand on your own two feet?
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Answer me this magic. Would you like the SNP to raise taxes in Scotland to support services there or are you happy with sturgeon demanding even more from the rest of the uk. Remember much more money comes from the uk tory government you hate that the EU you love. The grossy unfair Barnett formula has been continued by successive governments labour and Tory. Presumably you would like it scrapped immediately so you can stand on your own two feet?
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Did you miss the link that showed we paid more tax per head than any part of the uk for 30 out of 32 years?

The notion we leach is a myth. Plus we would need to borrow no more than any other region us currently borrowing. People tend to overlook that the uk borrows plenty as a whole right now. Post Brexit with the further fall of the £, loss of access to our EU market, the time needed to get deals when we are desperate isn't a good negotiating position.

Oil is low right now but we have 45b barrels of it at least left with west cost fields very possible.

Also we were awarded Triple A status before the last ref and that didn't include oil.

Oil will return to a higher price. The doom merchants try to suggest that this low price will be a constant and that is just wrong.
 
Magicpole said:
May is now talking about no Scottish referendum for six years! That's a very small once in a generation gap!

That comment by Salmond was Salmond a one vote Scot.

How can any one person set a time?

He had no right to unilaterally declare anything. Made a lot of people in the Yes coalition very angry.

Every age group apart from the over 65's voted Yes. 76% of them voted No and swung it.

We will be four years down the line with the natural decline in that vote aligned to more young people able to vote and polls suggest this group are in a healthy maj for yes.

The swing we needed to win last time was just 300,000 votes

That's do able. The major fear I have is people might think Brexit and Indy at the same time is too scary and Project Fear will be bigger and nastier than ever to prey on that.

One thing I can guarantee you. Labour will not stand shoukder to shoukder with the Tories again. It destroyed them last time. A repeat will put them into the political extinction zone.

Economic hardship is coming to these islands with big tacketty boots regardless of what we choose.

The choice then is who do you trust to have our interests and the society the maj want.

Tories or ourselves?

Hmmmm
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That once in a generation statement was uttered by a bloke knowing he was heading for the door, it has no more validity than May's love for the EU only nine months back.

I think you and I agree this is all abut the politics and nothing to do with the economics. May takes the economics standpoint when it suits her (see the tweet I posted earlier with a clip of May's Times article) and then reverts straight back to politics, often contradicting herself in the process.

Sturgeon plays politics al the time because it's her strong suit and she knows demographics and circumstances are playing in her favour.

Not unlike the situation in Northern Ireland, Gerry Adams is walking around like a dog with two dicks, he can't stop smiling.
 
Magicpole said:
Every age group apart from the over 65's voted Yes. 76% of them voted No and swung it.

We will be four years down the line with the natural decline in that vote aligned to more young people able to vote and polls suggest this group are in a healthy maj for yes.

The swing we needed to win last time was just 300,000 votes

That's do able.
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Are those alternate facts you're quoting? They're certainly not true.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll
 
How about a referendum to see if there is a majority wanting a 2ND Indy referendum?

;-)
 
Magicpole said:
We will be four years down the line with the natural decline in that vote aligned to more young people able to vote and polls suggest this group are in a healthy maj for yes.
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Spoken like a true Nationalist.

People have to die in order to get the desired result and no, I don't apologise for saying that.

Disgusting but then so is Nationalism.
 
Magicpole said:
Every age group apart from the over 65's voted Yes. 76% of them voted No and swung it.

We will be four years down the line with the natural decline in that vote aligned to more young people able to vote and polls suggest this group are in a healthy maj for yes.
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A 70 year old in 2014 would have been 20 in 1964. Part of the generation that invented sex, drugs and rock & roll. Legalised abortion and homosexuality. Protested about the Vietnam war, nuclear weapons and apartheid. They were a much more revolutionary, experimental and radical generation than the current twentysomethings. But by 2014 they were older, risk averse and more conservative.

When the next referendum takes place there will be fewer of them around. But guess what? The 2014 fiftysomethings will be a few years older, nearer pension age, more concerned about whether they will be able have a hip operation rather than a brave new world. Less inclined to take a risk on Yes than they were in 2014.
 
blueinsa said:
How about a referendum to see if there is a majority wanting a 2ND Indy referendum?

;-)
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How about us down here in England having a referendum on whether we still want to be allied with Scotland, i would put my house on the result
 
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