Suella Braverman - sacked as Home Secretary (p394)

[BobKowalski]

We're not talking about the home nations, their identity and the things that bind them here on this island, their home, are millennia in the making.

As for....


That's melting pot not multiculturalism.

As for....


But more often they're a lie.

And people that are born in the home nations become part of that continuous thread of history irrespective of their ethnic background. That is what binds us and it applies to everyone. How much it binds is an individual decision - events can weaken or strengthen that bond. In my case the last decade has weakened that bond, but it still exists, just as it exists for everyone else born here.

People can have different customs, cuisines or religions, but still regard the UK as home, either by adoption or birth. And that sense of ‘home’ is the key, but what constitutes ‘home’ will change and evolve. We are not the Great Britain of thirty, fifty, a hundred years ago, yet we are still obviously British. That identity persists, no matter the waves of immigration that have taken place over the centuries and will continue to remain after we have long passed.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

When haven't we been multicultural? ("We" being the people who inhabit these islands now known as the British Isles.)

"We owe a great deal to the Beaker men and women who braved the treacherous English Channel in their rickety animal-skin boats – the earliest of many enterprising economic migrants risking their necks to reach Blighty." (From a review of https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09hr5pc/invasion-with-sam-willis-series-1-episode-1 )

And indeed where we first got ginger people from on the island.

 

[The perfect fumble]

And people that are born in the home nations become part of that continuous thread of history irrespective of their ethnic background. That is what binds us and it applies to everyone. How much it binds is an individual decision - events can weaken or strengthen that bond. In my case the last decade has weakened that bond, but it still exists, just as it exists for everyone else born here.

People can have different customs, cuisines or religions, but still regard the UK as home, either by adoption or birth. And that sense of ‘home’ is the key, but what constitutes ‘home’ will change and evolve. We are not the Great Britain of thirty, fifty, a hundred years ago, yet we are still obviously British. That identity persists, no matter the waves of immigration that have taken place over the centuries and will continue to remain after we have long passed.

When haven't we been multicultural? ("We" being the people who inhabit these islands now known as the British Isles.)

"We owe a great deal to the Beaker men and women who braved the treacherous English Channel in their rickety animal-skin boats – the earliest of many enterprising economic migrants risking their necks to reach Blighty." (From a review of https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09hr5pc/invasion-with-sam-willis-series-1-episode-1 )

As a descriptive term, multiculturalism refers to the coexistence of people with many cultural identities in a common state, society, or community.

A “melting pot” is a society in which those multiple cultures mix freely, borrow from each other, and gradually blend together.

The two are not the same.

Multicultural is not the the same as multiculturalism. Whatever ones definition of multiculturalism, its effect is the ossification of difference.

The idea that an individual might be required to subsume at least a portion of their cultural identity, in order to facilitate, and I quote our American cousins, a more "perfect union", is an anathema to the left and that is why we fail.

It is not difficult to see why people cherish their cultural identity, it is a vital part of their self identity, of who they are. The downside is if difference is paramount, above all else, it comes at the price of a common national identity. Deep down we all know this, but the left can't articulate it, weighed down as it is with white guilt and the burden of empire and so on and so forth.

Meanwhile, in the real world, away from all the noise and bullshit we have this....



This debate is poisonous, to hold a counter view to the slogans and incomprehensible bollocks is to invite ad hominem from the usual suspects in here. But regardless of ones views on this issue, whatever they may be, what we have now is not working as well as it should.

 

[BobKowalski]

As a descriptive term, multiculturalism refers to the coexistence of people with many cultural identities in a common state, society, or community.

A “melting pot” is a society in which those multiple cultures mix freely, borrow from each other, and gradually blend together.

The two are not the same.

Multicultural is not the the same as multiculturalism. Whatever ones definition of multiculturalism, its effect is the celebration of difference.

The idea that an individual might be required to subsume, at least a portion of their cultural identity, in order facilitate, and I quote our American cousins, a more "perfect union" is an anathema to the left and that is why we fail.

It is not difficult to see why people cherish their cultural identity, it is a vital part of their self identity, of who they are. The downside is if difference is celebrated it comes at the price of a common national identity. Deep down we all know this, but the left can't articulate it, weighed down with white guilt and the burden of empire etc, etc, etc.

This debate is poisonous, to hold a counter view to the slogans and incomprehensible bullshit is to invite ad hominem from the usual suspects in here. But regardless of ones view on this issue, whatever it is, what we have now is not working.

This is not how it works. A group can practice its religion, its customs, its cuisine and still identify as British. Over generations these elements will seep into the traits of other groups. What will act as a barrier to this natural fusion is politics - the refusal to accept a particular group, and religion.

The sectarian barriers of Northern Ireland are not what they were of thirty or fifty years ago. There are people who will cling to those barriers, in any group there will always be someone who refuses to accept change, but for younger generations there is less emphasis and interest in this divide. This is a natural and inevitable process. The main obstacle to it occurring is those on the extremes who seek to maintain those divides for political and/or monetary gain.

Multiculturalism, melting pot or whatever you want to call it is irrelevant. We are a nation of immigrants, always have been and always will be. The economy needs labour and immigration will keep rising. And it isn’t just us. Greece is toying with the idea of naturalising 300,000 people already within its borders. Italy is trying to reconcile the fascist rhetoric that got it elected with its need for labour. And round and round we go with the same centuries old xenophobic rhetoric only to discover we ain’t got a choice.

The people who are already here, seek to exclude those that haven’t yet arrived. And when they do arrive, they will in time seek to exclude those who have yet to arrive. When it comes to immigration we are nothing if not predictable.

Finally, the claim multiculturalism isn’t working as evidenced by a Home Secretary of Indian descent, married to a Jew and doing a Enoch Powell tribute act. Well, yeah, I find that funny, almost Pythonesque. Her boss, a Hindu and also of Indian descent, claims it is. Perhaps we should get the Mayor of London, a Muslim of Pakistani descent to cast the deciding vote.

 

[The perfect fumble]

This is not how it works. A group can practice its religion, its customs, its cuisine and still identify as British. Over generations these elements will seep into the traits of other groups. What will act as a barrier to this natural fusion is politics - the refusal to accept a particular group, and religion.

The sectarian barriers of Northern Ireland are not what they were of thirty or fifty years ago. There are people who will cling to those barriers, in any group there will always be someone who refuses to accept change, but for younger generations there is less emphasis and interest in this divide. This is a natural and inevitable process. The main obstacle to it occurring is those on the extremes who seek to maintain those divides for political and/or monetary gain.

Multiculturalism, melting pot or whatever you want to call it is irrelevant. We are a nation of immigrants, always have been and always will be. The economy needs labour and immigration will keep rising. And it isn’t just us. Greece is toying with the idea of naturalising 300,000 people already within its borders. Italy is trying to reconcile the fascist rhetoric that got it elected with its need for labour. And round and round we go with the same centuries old xenophobic rhetoric only to discover we ain’t got a choice.

The people who are already here, seek to exclude those that haven’t yet arrived. And when they do arrive, they will in time seek to exclude those who have yet to arrive. When it comes to immigration we are nothing if not predictable.

Finally, the claim multiculturalism isn’t working as evidenced by a Home Secretary of Indian descent, married to a Jew and doing a Enoch Powell tribute act. Well, yeah, I find that funny, almost Pythonesque. Her boss, a Hindu and also of Indian descent, claims it is. Perhaps we should get the Mayor of London, a Muslim of Pakistani descent to cast the deciding vote.

This is word salad.

Throw whatever at the wall and see what sticks.

We're done here.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It is not difficult to see why people cherish their cultural identity, it is a vital part of their self identity, of who they are. The downside is if difference is paramount, above all else, it comes at the price of a common national identity. Deep down we all know this, but the left can't articulate it, weighed down as it is with white guilt and the burden of empire and so on and so forth.

This is a word salad - are you English? British or a Citizen of the UK and NI? You could be Welsh or Scottish. A Channel Islander a Gibraltarian and what cultural identity should you have if you are any of those in a world which is now so small the other side of it is a day long plane ride away?

 

[The perfect fumble]

This is a word salad - are you English? British or a Citizen of the UK and NI? You could be Welsh or Scottish. A Channel Islander a Gibraltarian and what cultural identity should you have if you are any of those in a world which is now so small the other side of it is a day long plane ride away?

For someone who professes to give a shit about this country, you seem more than happy to proclaim the nation state dead.

What a loser this guy is eh? And all the other losers swearing allegiance smiling and clapping, the unenlightened fools don't realise they're swearing allegiance to nothing....



Have you ever been in a meeting where the chair is desperately trying to find a working consensus in a room full of differing opinions? Well a multicultural country is that room writ large, and that consensus the chair is desperate to find? That's where you'll find national identity, that sense of common purpose, the things that unite us despite our differences.

The fact you don't see this, is why the left fails on patriotism time and again, why we've ceded patriotism to the right, to GB News and Farage, it's why Brexit took the left by surprise, and it's why Starmer feels the need to fly the union flag outside Labour constituency offices.

But Starmer's an arsehole right? Patriotism is for Tories, Southern Counties twats, little englanders! We're progressives, we're citizens of the world and what with easyjet and Ryanair, who gives two fucks about the union! National identity, patriotism, common cause, belonging, community, pride, fuck that! That's just for racists and xenophobes.

As you say you can be in Australia in a day, and what about Gibraltarians? And oh look a squirrel!

Well some folk do give two fucks.

"I can't contain my happiness"....

 

[Vic]

For someone who professes to give a shit about this country, you seem more than happy to proclaim the nation state dead.

What a loser this guy is eh? And all the other losers swearing allegiance smiling and clapping, the unenlightened fools don't realise they're swearing allegiance to nothing....



Have you ever been in a meeting where the chair is desperately trying to find a working consensus in a room full of differing opinions? Well a multicultural country is that room writ large, and that consensus the chair is desperate to find? That's where you'll find national identity, that sense of common purpose, the things that unite us despite our differences.

The fact you don't see it, is why the left fails on patriotism time and again, why we've ceded patriotism to the right, to GB News and Farage, it's why Brexit took the left by surprise, and it's why Starmer feels the need to fly the union flag outside Labour constituency offices.

But Starmer's an arsehole right? Patriotism is for Tories, Southern Counties twats, little englanders! We're progressives, we're citizens of the world and what with easyjet and Ryanair, who gives two fucks about the union! National identity, patriotism, common cause, belonging, community, pride, fuck that! That's just for racists and xenophobes.

Well some folk do give two fucks.

"I can't contain my happiness"....

I think you mistake "consensus" for unanimity.

Your attempt to distinguish between melting pot and multicultural (and pretending multiculturalism isn't the same) is just semantics, and in practice useless if no-one accepts subtle differences of what they mean.

Oath of allegiance in the citizenship ceremony? Why on earth should anyone - born British or becoming British - have to swear allegiance to the monarch? Half the population would do away with the monarchy, so that's another "cross-cultural" division.

As for "common cause, belonging, community, pride" not being "left", I'd have thought they were fairly common traits of left-communitarian philosophies. Just a bigger idea of with whom we make common cause.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I think you mistake "consensus" for unanimity.

No I haven't.

Consensus:

Consensus is determined once all participants have formed a mutual agreement and are content with it.

Your attempt to distinguish between melting pot and multicultural (and pretending multiculturalism isn't the same) is just semantics, and in practice useless if no-one accepts subtle differences of what they mean.

A society can be multicultural, but with a dominant culture prevailing

Multiculturalism on the other hand is...

Collins Definition
Multiculturalism is a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant.

A “melting pot” is a society in which those multiple cultures mix freely, borrow from each other, and gradually blend together.

The two are clearly not the same.

Advocates for multiculturalism would hang you out to dry if you were to state that it's the same as melting pot! multiculturalism is an emphatic rejection of melting pot.

Oath of allegiance in the citizenship ceremony? Why on earth should anyone - born British or becoming British - have to swear allegiance to the monarch? Half the population would do away with the monarchy, so that's another "cross-cultural" division.

They swear allegiance to the monarch in order to become British citizens, because our monarch is a constitutional monarch, the holder of our unwritten constitution. What they are doing when they swear allegiance to the monarch is not endorsing the monarchy, but swearing allegiance to that constitution.

As for "common cause, belonging, community, pride" not being "left", I'd have thought they were fairly common traits of left-communitarian philosophies. Just a bigger idea of with whom we make common cause.

"Just a bigger idea of with whom to make common cause"

There is no answer to that.

 

[TinFoilHat]

"Welcum to me show. I'm here wiv wun ov greatest ministers we've ever had. She puts the Sexeh into Home Secretary..."



*Cruella giggles*



"...She's the figurehead fighting the lefty loving tofu eaters of this cuntry. I don't giv a flying fuk if OFCOM charge us for speaking truth! We are people's noooose channel. Mi first question love is...How quickly can we send the buggers back?"