Skashion said:
Markt85 said:
Going down a different path but when you mentioned morality , as an Athiest proves moral objectivity by insisting something is right when there worldview is that the world is nothing more than naturalistic therefore right or wrong is relative ? So in your worldview America can do what the hell they like there is no right or wrong ?
What an utter buffoon you are when you believe religion is the only way of forming a theory of morality. How arrogant are you? What makes it an even bigger nonsense is that the Bible is a text put together by committee in Nicaea, by men, not God. So you believe in morality put together by a few dozen men 1700 years ago... But wait, it gets better, half the shit you believe in is self-contradictory anyway. You've got your Old Testament, which your Nicaea men never seemed to think they should throw away, but a lot of it is contradicted by what Jesus is alleged to have said (a lot of which I believe are excellent values rarely followed by the Church, especially the Catholic Church - a ruthless and shameful political organisation with much blood and the suffering of innocent boys on its hands, or as George Orwell labelled it "a racket, pure and simple").
Anyway, let's look at your so-called morality from Leviticus:
3. Eating fat (3:17)
4. Eating blood (3:17)
7. Touching an unclean animal (5:2)
8. Carelessly making an oath (5:4)
12. Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6)
13. Tearing your clothes (10:6)
14. Drinking alcohol in holy places (bit of a problem for Catholics, this ‘un) (10:9)
15. Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7)
16. Touching the carcass of any of the above (problems here for rugby) (11:8)
17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)
18. Eating – or touching the carcass of - eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. (11:13-19)
19. Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22)
20. Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (good news for cats) (11:27)
21. Eating – or touching the carcass of – the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon (11:29)
22. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any creature which crawls on many legs, or its belly (11:41-42)
23. Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)
24. Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)
39. Having sex with a man “as one does with a woman” (18:22)
41. Making idols or “metal gods” (19:4)
42. Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9)
43. Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10)
48. Holding back the wages of an employee overnight (not well observed these days) (19:13)
54. Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)
55. Cross-breeding animals (19:19)
56. Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)
58. Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23)
60. Trimming your beard (19:27)
61. Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27)
62. Getting tattoos (19:28)
65. Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32)
71. Slaughtering a cow/sheep and its young on the same day (22:28)
72. Working on the Sabbath (23:3)
73. Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14)
75. Selling land permanently (25:23)
76. Selling an Israelite as a slave (foreigners are fine) (25:42)
Or how about this one from Deuteronomy:
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
So Biblical morality makes punishable things probably 99.9% of us, including you, do. It commands you stone your disobedient children to death. It demands you punish blasphemers (even if they don't believe in your nonsense) with death. It demands homosexuals be put to death.
Oh yes, I feel quite comfortable comparing my morality to your Nicaea council-made 'holy' book. Very fucking comfortable. You see, I have formed by own path of morality. It is mostly based of John Stuart Mills theory, and the absolute fact, of individual autonomy. You see, we each have control over our own bodies and actions. We marry that fact to the idea that man should be free to express their autonomy as long as they don't harm the freedom of another individual to pursue their freedom of autonomy. So, from equality + individual autonomy = the harm principle. Which basically states, do whatever you want, as long as you do not harm others. So, my morality does not allow me to harm anyone. Indeed, I've never thrown a first punch at anyone in my life, and never will. I extend this further in that I never harm wasps, spiders etc. either. If I find them, I trap them and release them outside, or with spiders allow them to scuttle off and hide by tapping near them. Although I accept this cannot be law, but it's certainly part of my internal morality. My morality does not allow slavery of non-Israelites as yours does. However, my morality also allows homosexuals to go about their business without being stoned to death. It allows disobedient children to go without being stoned to death. It allows me to wear clothing made from two different fabrics. It allows me to trim my beard, cut my hair and get a tattoo. Your so-called morality, does not.
The Moral argument is NOT just exclusive to Christianity and at this point I am not providing evidence for Christianity, I am pointing towards one part of evidence that leads to a higher power, that could fit within most world religions so your arrogance claim is misunderstood from the off, I could be Muslim, Jew, Hindu.....whatever you like
You have bought up the Old Testament but not answered how living in a relative morality world makes logical sense to how you perceive the world my original question, for example.
Your world view is Naturalistic: The world is a completely naturalistic world, we are made up of a combination of matter, brought about by chance through an evolutionary process that is guided by nature, therefor ULTIMATELY there is no wrong or right, anything that is perceived as right is ULTIMATELY illusionary, it is up to the individual, community to perceive there right or wrong, what is right for you might not be for someone else.....YOU MUST UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN WORLDVIEW and live in it......
But you can't........
''America is wrong for invading Iraq...''
To you yes, but your world has no right or wrong, there is no higher power, it is simply a combination of matter, if there is a right and wrong, to what are you appealing to? Since your notion of right is different to a Nazi in Germany he would argue that exterminating Jews is right.....but are you right for opposing this notion, well in your own worldview....No, since neither you or him can appeal to any right or wrong, we live in a natural world were anything goes, sure you can have opinions, but ultimately your contradicting your own worldview, and doing it blindly.
If God does not exist what is the basis for these morals ? more importantly if I am to be accused of being arrogant then where do you get the idea that humans have any moral self worth, Science is morally neutral, you can't find morals in a test tube, it follows that moral values don't really exist, there just illusions
On a naturalistic view moral values are just the by-product of biological evolution and social conditioning
Take God out the picture and you are left with is an ape-like creature on a speck of Rock with delusional moral values
Now I am not saying that non believers are immoral people, of course not there are many instances of the reversal, I am just saying that objective moral values DO exist and Atheists are stuck in having a worldview to the contrary and living life as if it were naturalistic
Certain actions such as rape and incest, may not be biologically and socially adventurous and so in the course of human development have become taboo. But that does absolutely nothing to show that rape or incest is WRONG, such behavior goes on all the time in the Animal kingdom, if there is no moral lawgiver, then there is no objective moral law that we must obey
To be a perfect Naturalist you cannot say anyone else is wrong or right.
if you are a naturalist then live as one and see that we all have a right to do whatever we want to anyone we please.
