Tactics - Playing to not concede...

[Anonymous]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on. As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal. I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results. It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Frankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor. There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping. No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I agree with some of what you've said.

However I actually think he's been less defensive in the last few games.

My only potential issue with last night's starting 11 was whether having a right footer and left back was a good idea. Let's not forget we were missing key players.

I'm getting used to his odd substitutions.

We've not got the blend right all season and have been chopping and changing, sometimes because we've had to.

Next 3 games are make or break. It must click now. And you're certainly right that we must go into them to win them.

 

[goatfeeder100]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on. As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal. I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results. It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Frankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor. There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping. No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

The simple fact is we don't have enough quality as an attacking force to be really effective against teams like Everton, and we certainly don't have an attacking line up with any cohesion. Over reliance on individuals to produce something out of nothing is the problem. At this stage of the season, the solid teams are separated from the group of individuals who have stuttered through the season to this point.

I think had Everton not had a nightmare start to the season on all fronts, they would be comfortably fourth now, without a shadow of a doubt, I think Moyes has done a wonderful job there, and they are ready as a club to move forward. That has been built over seven or eight years. We are still a collection of new players and new management. It's going to take time for us to be where we want to be.

To relate this closer to your point about us playing not to concede, I don't blame Mancini because he obviously doesn't know what his first 11 is yet, and he probably doesn't fancy half the players in the squad anyway. Therefore you have to try and make us solid and hard to beat first and foremost, before you look at making us incisive enough to beat teams like Everton. He's doing things the right way for me up to now, he just has to be given the time, money and patience to mould the team in his own image.

 

[levets]

I agree with some of what you've said.

However I actually think he's been less defensive in the last few games.

My only potential issue with last night's starting 11 was whether having a right footer and left back was a good idea. Let's not forget we were missing key players.

I'm getting used to his odd substitutions.

We've not got the blend right all season and have been chopping and changing, sometimes because we've had to.

Next 3 games are make or break. It must click now. And you're certainly right that we must go into them to win them.

When I saw the team, I thought that Garrido, Santa Cruz & Vieira were injured. I was shocked to see they were all on the bench! Why did he change the team? I think he got sucked into the 'must pack the midfield with workers against Everton' brigade.

To play an average right back at left back, when a specialist left back is available is ridiculous. garrido isn't the worlds best, but he is better at left back than Zabba.... and offers some culture when going forward.

I'm really disappointed at the line up for last night,

 

[Soulboy]

Ah, yet another thinly disguised pop at the manager.

Didn't Everton set out "not to concede"?

Just a pity then that Mancini didn't pick Ireland for last night's game then, he might have made the difference. Oh, yeah, he did play though.

But didn't the OP clearly state that Ireland would never get a first team start again... only to be proved wrong the next game?

You need to make your mind up. If you want Mancini out then at least say it... all this sniping is unnecessary.

And you finish off by stating that Mancini will never win us the league... fair point. But only two days ago you were stating that he had your full support.

What's happened since to change your view? We lost a game?

We battered Everton most of the game, so how you can claim we were being overly-defensive is nonsense.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with some of what you've said.

However I actually think he's been less defensive in the last few games.

My only potential issue with last night's starting 11 was whether having a right footer and left back was a good idea. Let's not forget we were missing key players.

I'm getting used to his odd substitutions.

We've not got the blend right all season and have been chopping and changing, sometimes because we've had to.

Next 3 games are make or break. It must click now. And you're certainly right that we must go into them to win them.

On the face of it, you can say he's been more attack minded in recent matches, but is that really true. Were we really anymore attacking prior to conceding a goal yesterday than we were against Liverpool at home. I don't think we were.

There's another thing that's been bugging me. The players may not be players Mancini has signed, but can you honestly say that there is a single attacking player who looks better under Roberto than they did under Hughes? SWP's and Stevie are going backwards. Is Bellamy better? Have we seen any flourishes from anyone since Mancini took over which make you think "hmm, we could be quite a force going forwards". It's too easy and simplistic to just say "maybe the players aren't good enough".

As I said, if you go into every match with a similar game plan ie. sit back, defend deep, and look to hit either Bellamy or Tevez early and break, you'll get the mish mash of results we're seeing.<br /><br />-- Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:52 pm --<br /><br />

You need to make your mind up. If you want Mancini out then at least say it... all this sniping is unnecessary.

And you finish off by stating that Mancini will never win us the league... fair point. But only two days ago you were stating that he had your full support.

What's happened since to change your view? We lost a game?

We battered Everton most of the game, so how you can claim we were being overly-defensive is nonsense.

I don't need to make up my mind about anything. If I want to comment on what I perceive to be a flaw in Mancini's set up I will do so. If you don't like it, move on.

I said Mancini wouldn't win us the league weeks ago. Has no baring on whether or not I support him. Even less baring on whether or not I can comment on his teams.

We battered Everton most of the game? Yes and still managed to lose 0 - 2, and create not one clear cut chance to score a goal.

Frankly Soulboy, if you refuse to acknowledge there's any merit to what I posted, then I suggest you jog off and continue to tell all and sundry that all our players are crap and we need to buy a whole new team in the summer...

 

[kenzie115]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on. As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal. I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results. It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Frankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor. There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping. No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

A few weeks ago I'd have agreed with you, but did you think we approached the Fulham game with the primary aim being not to concede?

As for buckling against the big teams, Cheslea? United home leg Carling Cup?

I'd end by saying Mancini has a certain way of playing, in particular attacking, which involves slow build up and passing the ball, something which our midfield struggles to do.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Why should any Blue have to apologise for "having a pop at the manager"?

I'll always call it on here when they do something good or bad, just like the players.

I'd prefer others to do the same.<br /><br />-- Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:02 pm --<br /><br />

Frankly Soulboy, if you refuse to acknowledge there's any merit to what I posted, then I suggest you jog off and continue to tell all and sundry that all our players are crap and we need to buy a whole new team in the summer...

No, it's only eight new players we need according to Soulboy, not a whole new team.

And Mancini is doing an "incredible" job, or was it that he's the best in decades?

 

[Balti]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on. As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal. I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results. It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Frankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor. There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping. No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

I tend to agree and the really frustrating part is that we continued to play the same way when we were losing!!!!

Protecting a one goal deficit ffs!!!

 

[Anonymous]

The simple fact is we don't have enough quality as an attacking force to be really effective against teams like Everton, and we certainly don't have an attacking line up with any cohesion. Over reliance on individuals to produce something out of nothing is the problem. At this stage of the season, the solid teams are separated from the group of individuals who have stuttered through the season to this point.

I have to say I completely disagree with that. Look at our attacking players. Tevez, Ade, SWP, Petrov, Bellamy, Ireland, AJ now. We have a lot of very very good attacking players. I do agree that we don't have an attacking line up with any cohesion. Neither of our managers this season has managed to find a way for the team to play properly when attacking. We do rely on the brilliance of Tevez and the pace of Bellamy way too much.

I think had Everton not had a nightmare start to the season on all fronts, they would be comfortably fourth now, without a shadow of a doubt, I think Moyes has done a wonderful job there, and they are ready as a club to move forward. That has been built over seven or eight years. We are still a collection of new players and new management. It's going to take time for us to be where we want to be.

I suppose I agree to some extent, and on the whole I actually think we've done brilliantly this season.

To relate this closer to your point about us playing not to concede, I don't blame Mancini because he obviously doesn't know what his first 11 is yet, and he probably doesn't fancy half the players in the squad anyway. Therefore you have to try and make us solid and hard to beat first and foremost, before you look at making us incisive enough to beat teams like Everton. He's doing things the right way for me up to now, he just has to be given the time, money and patience to mould the team in his own image.

Mancini as a professional manager, after over 3 months in charge of the players, should know his best XI and his best formation. In terms of giving him time and money, only our owners know if he's going to get them. All I'm concerned about right now is 4th place, and my post is about my concerns as to whether playing Mancini's "way" against the likes of Everton is going to get us there.

 

[lancs blue]

Mancini has to work with what he's got and in particular with a midfield that is lop-sided in terms of the absence of a box-to-box player and a really creative player. So he concentrates on protecting a clean sheet as his first priority, and tbf it hasn't worked too badly up to now.

 

[Soulboy]

Why should any Blue have to apologise for "having a pop at the manager"?

I'll always call it on here when they do something good or bad, just like the players.

I'd prefer others to do the same.

-- Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:02 pm --

Frankly Soulboy, if you refuse to acknowledge there's any merit to what I posted, then I suggest you jog off and continue to tell all and sundry that all our players are crap and we need to buy a whole new team in the summer...

No, it's only eight new players we need according to Soulboy, not a whole new team.

And Mancini is doing an "incredible" job, or was it that he's the best in decades?

You've already lied once in a previous thread and apologised and now you've done it again!

Having problems reading or just undestanding numbers?

I said FOUR new first team players.

Is that too difficult to comprehend. Not 8.

If you think we should stick with the current squad and expect to make progress next season you are deluded.

Strangely enough DD you were on here with a thread saying how well we played last night... BS comes on saying the opposite and you agree!

Are you the same person? I think we should be told...

 

[Rammy Blue]

We can go round in circles as much as we like however it will pretty much always come back to the fact that we do not have a decent enough engine room to dictate games of football, we are in effect a "one trick pony".

Not once yesterday did we switch play by hitting a ball 30 or 40 yards, there were times when I was crying out for us to at least attempt to hit an adventurous pass, alas it never came.

Therefore imo Bob is attempting to tempt teams to come at us by "playing not to concede" in order for us to utilize our strongest point which is hitting teams with pace through Bellamy and getting Tevez one on one with defenders.

We haven't played particularly well all season, grinding out wins through individual brilliance, and this won't change until major surgery is performed upon our central midfield/playmaker positions.

The final piece in the jigsaw is then having full backs, ala Maicon, who can attack and overlap at pace added to having the technical ability to pass or cross the football at the end of their runs.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Why should any Blue have to apologise for "having a pop at the manager"?

I'll always call it on here when they do something good or bad, just like the players.

I'd prefer others to do the same.

-- Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:02 pm --



No, it's only eight new players we need according to Soulboy, not a whole new team.

And Mancini is doing an "incredible" job, or was it that he's the best in decades?

You've already lied once in a previous thread and apologised and now you've done it again!

Having problems reading or just undestanding numbers?

I said FOUR new first team players.

Is that too difficult to comprehend. Not 8.

If you think we should stick with the current squad and expect to make progress next season you are deluded.

Strangely enough DD you were on here with a thread saying how well we played last night... BS comes on saying the opposite and you agree!

Are you the same person? I think we should be told...

You're getting easy to wind up these days, Soulboy.

It used to be a bit of a challenge ;)

1-1

 

[Soulboy]

You've already lied once in a previous thread and apologised and now you've done it again!

Having problems reading or just undestanding numbers?

I said FOUR new first team players.

Is that too difficult to comprehend. Not 8.

If you think we should stick with the current squad and expect to make progress next season you are deluded.

Strangely enough DD you were on here with a thread saying how well we played last night... BS comes on saying the opposite and you agree!

Are you the same person? I think we should be told...

You're getting easy to wind up these days, Soulboy.

It used to be a bit of a challenge ;)

1-1

I never resort to lying though or claiming someone said something they hadn't...

So diving for a penalty doesn't count.

Still 1-0

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You're getting easy to wind up these days, Soulboy.

It used to be a bit of a challenge ;)

1-1

I never resort to lying though or claiming someone said something they hadn't...

So diving for a penalty doesn't count.

Still 1-0

If you want to be a miserable cnut then two can play at that game. I was trying to have a laugh with you. Hence the wink.

You said we need 8 new players.

that's what you said.

Deny it again, I dare you

 

[ST Coleridge]

But BillyShears, what would you have done differently?

 

[Anonymous]

We can go round in circles as much as we like however it will pretty much always come back to the fact that we do not have a decent enough engine room to dictate games of football, we are in effect a "one trick pony".

Not once yesterday did we switch play by hitting a ball 30 or 40 yards, there were times when I was crying out for us to at least attempt to hit an adventurous pass, alas it never came.

Therefore imo Bob is attempting to tempt teams to come at us by "playing not to concede" in order for us to utilize our strongest point which is hitting teams with pace through Bellamy and getting Tevez one on one with defenders.

We haven't played particularly well all season, grinding out wins through individual brilliance, and this won't change until major surgery is performed upon our central midfield/playmaker positions.

The final piece in the jigsaw is then having full backs, ala Maicon, who can attack and overlap at pace added to having the technical ability to pass or cross the football at the end of their runs.

You've kind of made my point. We don't try to do anything differently. We may not have the best passers in the world, or the best engine room in the world, but we have ENOUGH quality in there to be trying different things, and we're not. Plus, the players confidence seems utterly shot to pieces (with the exception of Tevez and Kompany who are natural born winners IMO). We've started every game for the last month second best. We've looked lethargic and unsure of ourselves.

I'm sorry but, I find it staggering the lengths people are going to to try and not criticize Roberto. He's human and will make mistakes and if they can't be discussed on Bluemoon, then Ric should shut up shop right now....

 

[robbieh]

I wondered how long it would be before the Mancini out brigade got a`post in.

Even though as soulboy rightly states it is always very subtle.

Still after the ridiclous Ireland post dragged on for nearly 100 pages lets keep this short and to the point.

Mancini was brought in mid season to a team that couldn't defend despite the previous manager spending the following on defensive players.

Zabaleta 5 million
Given 6 million
Toure 14 m
Bridge 12 m
Lescott 24 m
Kompany 8 m
de Jong 17m

I am not saying they are bad players. But they are all defensive minded. So why the hell couldn't Hughes utilize them properly?

 

[Ricktee76]

Playing like we did last night against the likes of Villa, Tottenham and Birmingham will get us no where. Santa Cruz is getting into positions but his confidence is shot to pieces and his finishing was dreadful.
Were on 53 points now with 8 games to go and 24 points up for grabs. Basically we'd have to win 6 out the 8 or at least go undefeated to break the magical 70 point mark that was set as the seasons target. I believe we will pick up another 12/13 points and finish on 65/66pts, still our best ever season in the PL but ironically a let down on the massive potential this season had.

We should play to attack, then once we've got to close the game out, bring on the likes of Viera and deJong not start with them.
Personally if i was managing another team and i saw the opposition lined up so defensively i'd be more up for it thinking that they dont fancy it and that would make me believe they feared us, because if i attacked they'll just sit further and further back.