Tactics - Playing to not concede...

[goatfeeder100]

The simple fact is we don't have enough quality as an attacking force to be really effective against teams like Everton, and we certainly don't have an attacking line up with any cohesion. Over reliance on individuals to produce something out of nothing is the problem. At this stage of the season, the solid teams are separated from the group of individuals who have stuttered through the season to this point.

I have to say I completely disagree with that. Look at our attacking players. Tevez, Ade, SWP, Petrov, Bellamy, Ireland, AJ now. We have a lot of very very good attacking players. I do agree that we don't have an attacking line up with any cohesion. Neither of our managers this season has managed to find a way for the team to play properly when attacking. We do rely on the brilliance of Tevez and the pace of Bellamy way too much.

I suppose the problem is as much our style of play as anything else. We have a collection of players who have qualities in their own rights, but putting them together and finding the right combination and the right cohesion is proving to be probably the biggest problem, so players like Ireland, SWP, Petrov can't find themselves a settled position within the team to how whatever qualities they do possess.

Last night showed that without the odd moment of inspiration from Tevez or Bellamy, we are lacking genuine class going forward AS A TEAM to be able to break down sides as strong as Everton.

It would be very easy to counter this by saying well it's the same bunch of players who beat Chelsea twice and Arsenal, but that's kind of the point. Relate those results to our draws against Fulham, Hull, Burnley, the defeats to Hull, Spurs and of course last night, and there lies the inconsistency, which I believe is born out of us not having a settled side at all. Players like Bellamy are having to get by being played in positions they are not accumstomed to. Sometimes it works (the weekend being a good example), sometimes it doesn't (last night being a good example). Therefore IMO the lack of a settled side equals a lack of consistency, and that's where I think the lack of quality is being shown up. If you look at Chelsea, players like Malouda and Anelka have to play positions they aren't fond of, but they are good enoug to get by and that's why they are second. We have too many players who are very good, but just not quite up to the level required if we are to get into the top four.

Also, to say Mancini should know his best 11 after 3 months is exactly why we won't achieve anything. Look at Everton for proof of what patience can. If Mancini is given the time to buy players that suit his style of play, rather than simply the biggest players, then we will see better results IMO. It's all very well being linked with guys like Torres, Aguero etc every week, but look at the best teams in Europe and they are littered with players who suit their club's style of play, despite not necessarily being of superstar quality. Utd have guys like Fletcher, Park, Valencia, who are perfect for their style of play, especially in the big games. It wouldn't do us any harm to remember that and maybe take a leaf out of their book.

 

[moomba]

Seems every match we don't win that tactics are responsible.

I missed the start but don't think we set up too defensively, don't think we went overly defensive when Ireland went off and I'm not sure there was a lot went wrong on the day short of some players playing poorly (Richards, SWP, Barry, Bellamy) and a bot of bad luck.

 

[Rammy Blue]

We can go round in circles as much as we like however it will pretty much always come back to the fact that we do not have a decent enough engine room to dictate games of football, we are in effect a "one trick pony".

Not once yesterday did we switch play by hitting a ball 30 or 40 yards, there were times when I was crying out for us to at least attempt to hit an adventurous pass, alas it never came.

Therefore imo Bob is attempting to tempt teams to come at us by "playing not to concede" in order for us to utilize our strongest point which is hitting teams with pace through Bellamy and getting Tevez one on one with defenders.

We haven't played particularly well all season, grinding out wins through individual brilliance, and this won't change until major surgery is performed upon our central midfield/playmaker positions.

The final piece in the jigsaw is then having full backs, ala Maicon, who can attack and overlap at pace added to having the technical ability to pass or cross the football at the end of their runs.

You've kind of made my point. We don't try to do anything differently. We may not have the best passers in the world, or the best engine room in the world, but we have ENOUGH quality in there to be trying different things, and we're not. Plus, the players confidence seems utterly shot to pieces (with the exception of Tevez and Kompany who are natural born winners IMO). We've started every game for the last month second best. We've looked lethargic and unsure of ourselves.

I'm sorry but, I find it staggering the lengths people are going to to try and not criticize Roberto. He's human and will make mistakes and if they can't be discussed on Bluemoon, then Ric should shut up shop right now....

What are you on about now Billy?

I have already been quite clear about the fact that I thought Bob called it wrong with the selection, shouldn't have chosen Stevie, and that I also thought he made the wrong subs; however the problems in the midfield are so huge that it is the fundamental reason why we can't change anything in particular with regards to tactics.

Question to you then Billy....

Having looked at our bench what do YOU think were the options?

 

[citymad]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on. As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal. I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results. It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Frankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor. There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping. No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

The simple fact is we don't have enough quality as an attacking force to be really effective against teams like Everton, and we certainly don't have an attacking line up with any cohesion. Over reliance on individuals to produce something out of nothing is the problem. At this stage of the season, the solid teams are separated from the group of individuals who have stuttered through the season to this point.

I think had Everton not had a nightmare start to the season on all fronts, they would be comfortably fourth now, without a shadow of a doubt, I think Moyes has done a wonderful job there, and they are ready as a club to move forward. That has been built over seven or eight years. We are still a collection of new players and new management. It's going to take time for us to be where we want to be.

To relate this closer to your point about us playing not to concede, I don't blame Mancini because he obviously doesn't know what his first 11 is yet, and he probably doesn't fancy half the players in the squad anyway. Therefore you have to try and make us solid and hard to beat first and foremost, before you look at making us incisive enough to beat teams like Everton. He's doing things the right way for me up to now, he just has to be given the time, money and patience to mould the team in his own image.

Great post mate. That comparison with where Everton and City are is spot on. Even when Mourinho came in to win them a title Chelsea had flirted with the top 5 for a few years point being its going to take a season or two under mancini to build a solid team to build on. I'm just thankful that Mansour overlooked Everton and chose us. City fans would do well to remember this and be a little more patient.

 

[levets]

Playing like we did last night against the likes of Villa, Tottenham and Birmingham will get us no where. Santa Cruz is getting into positions but his confidence is shot to pieces and his finishing was dreadful.
Were on 53 points now with 8 games to go and 24 points up for grabs. Basically we'd have to win 6 out the 8 or at least go undefeated to break the magical 70 point mark that was set as the seasons target. I believe we will pick up another 12/13 points and finish on 65/66pts, still our best ever season in the PL but ironically a let down on the massive potential this season had.

We should play to attack, then once we've got to close the game out, bring on the likes of Viera and deJong not start with them.
Personally if i was managing another team and i saw the opposition lined up so defensively i'd be more up for it thinking that they dont fancy it and that would make me believe they feared us, because if i attacked they'll just sit further and further back.

We should play to attack, then once we've got to close the game out, bring on the likes of Viera and deJong not start with them.
=============================

my thoughts exactly.... .......

 

[Gelsons Dad]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on.

One would imagine if it was "fundamental" it would have been picked up on

As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal.

I didn't see that to be the case at all. And neither has it been in many other games. This is just your perception and I'm sure it isn't what the manager is setting out to do.

I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results.

Mancini has changed tactics and formation regularly to suite the players available and the opposition.

It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

and yet they had previously won and came runners up in the champs league with the shackles on!!

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Would that balance be reflected by picking up the 4th highest points per game tally in the league?

F

rankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor.

Unless its the rags at home or chelsea away!

There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

League results under Mancini
played---w---d---l---f---a---points
13------7---3---3--22--12----24

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping.

We are much closer to 4th than we were when he arrived.

No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

If you want to see appalling results just take a look at the 08-09 season. There is no comparison.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

Why? He has a proven record of winning. Is it because he isn't Welsh?

 

[rastus]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on. As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal. I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results. It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Frankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor. There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping. No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

Is that the thrust of this post?

I think Mancinis PL Record is P12 W7 D2 L3....not bad.

And you must see the limitations with the squad eg no playmaker this key role had been abolished under the previous manager a position filled within all the top clubs.

Mancini is performing well with an imbalanced team, thats why your seeing strange subs/ player positions.
Mourinho? would he do any better given the same circumstances? I very much doubt it.

 

[Killafleez]

1. We need an ENGLISH leader/captain.
2. We need a good attacking central midfielder.

Given 6 - not much to say on him. Should be our first choice captain

Zab 6 - not very good ball skill but always tries his best considering he is a utility player

Richards 7 - aerial ability and movement forward/strength cannot falter, unlucky to be brought off

Kompany 6 (maybe 7) - he's been our rock up to now and had plenty of work to do last night. Not his best night but by far a bargain

Toure 7 - was crap 2 months back (maybe due to the africa cup and fasting) but played well against fulham and equally as good last night

de Jong 5/6 - tried to encourage everyone with a crunching tackle that got him booked but otherwise quiet

Barry 6 - some times it feels like he's having to do too much in midfield (and you can see his frustration), he plays best when he gets the ball deep and gives the ball to more attacking players. Excellent at clearing up and covering but not fast enough to push on up the pitch. Not his best game

Ireland 6 - when he is played regularly he is a good AMF but not for where we want to be in the future. I know thats going to upset some of you guvnors but hes no lampard or gerrard

Johnson 7 - why the fuck would you bring him off!!!!! put bellamy on the left, keep johnson on the right and bring santa on for ireland.

Bellamy 6 - Better on the left, by 100 miles! Our best wingers are bellamy and johnson. It didn't go right for bellers last night, unlucky with the offside

SWP -7 - I''l sum him up for you... 'side step to the right (predictable), gets tackled/loses the ball, and slides on his knees'. Where did he go wrong, he was a favourite but now he's terrible.

Viera - can't really rate his performance last night. I personally think he is past it. Why did we get him? Was he brought here to mature the team? Confused...

Santa 6 - now I know we all think he is a waste of money and couldn't hit two barn doors even if they were attached to the ball but with Ade out we need somebody to aim for and (sorry) but he is the only fucker we've got! I'll be honest, I think he holds the ball well and because of that he gets us further up the pitch but his shooting has got to improve. I would have brought him on for Ireland and told SWP to hit the showers

Tevez 8 - Quality player!! Really appreciates the money he is getting paid

 

[Anonymous]

One would imagine if it was "fundamental" it would have been picked up on

A stunningly sharp observation.

I didn't see that to be the case at all. And neither has it been in many other games. This is just your perception and I'm sure it isn't what the manager is setting out to do.

Its difficult to discuss when you use such simple logic. "I don't see it that way, therefore, that isn't the case." You're SURE the manager isn't setting out to do that? Have you spoken to Mancini about it? Because unless you have, I imagine the choice of words you were looking for is I THINK that isn't what he's setting out to do.

Mancini has changed tactics and formation regularly to suite the players available and the opposition.

He has often changed shape, and used lots of different players, but that has nothing to do with the mentality with which he wants them to play.

and yet they had previously won and came runners up in the champs league with the shackles on!!

Another stunning piece of insight there.

Would that balance be reflected by picking up the 4th highest points per game tally in the league?

Why am I not surprised you're a stats man. Here's one for you. 3 wins in 10. See, easy this stats game.

Unless its the rags at home or chelsea away!

Ha ha ha. Another stunning piece of insight there. I've learnt a lot so far from your post.

League results under Mancini
played---w---d---l---f---a---points
13------7---3---3--22--12----24

Didn't I just say that the stats may look good on paper?

We are much closer to 4th than we were when he arrived.

Much closer? So we were 6 points adrift of 4th when Mancini took over? 10 points adrift? I'm curious what MUCH CLOSER actually means, because we're not 4th now, and we weren't 4th then.

If you want to see appalling results just take a look at the 08-09 season. There is no comparison.

You're right, there is no comparison, because we had a totally different team last season, with totally different expectations.

Why? He has a proven record of winning. Is it because he isn't Welsh?

It's taken you all that time to get to your own point. Next time, save yourself the arse ache and just post "You don't like Mancini because you supported Hughes" - to which I'll reply, "You will look past all of Mancini's faults because he isn't Hughes and your hate for Hughes has let you cloud your objectivity". We'll then agree to disagree and move on...<br /><br />-- Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:25 pm --<br /><br />

What are you on about now Billy?

I have already been quite clear about the fact that I thought Bob called it wrong with the selection, shouldn't have chosen Stevie, and that I also thought he made the wrong subs; however the problems in the midfield are so huge that it is the fundamental reason why we can't change anything in particular with regards to tactics.

Question to you then Billy....

Having looked at our bench what do YOU think were the options?

You seem to either be missing the point or ignoring it on purpose. I'm not talking about his team selection or his formation on the night, I'm talking about the incredibly negative way in which he approaches most matches, home and away. You keep saying that it's all down to us lacking in the centre of midfield, but that doesn't really excuse losing at Hull, or drawing at Sunderland, or losing at home to Everton. Those results were down to us being unable or unwilling to put those teams under any real pressure in the first half of those games. That was because we set up first and foremost to defend rather than attack.

I respect the fact that plenty of people are happy with Roberto's way, and lord knows if he gets 4th I'll want to name my first born after him, but I'm talking about the hear and now.

 

[Killafleez]

Playing like we did last night against the likes of Villa, Tottenham and Birmingham will get us no where. Santa Cruz is getting into positions but his confidence is shot to pieces and his finishing was dreadful.
Were on 53 points now with 8 games to go and 24 points up for grabs. Basically we'd have to win 6 out the 8 or at least go undefeated to break the magical 70 point mark that was set as the seasons target. I believe we will pick up another 12/13 points and finish on 65/66pts, still our best ever season in the PL but ironically a let down on the massive potential this season had.

We should play to attack, then once we've got to close the game out, bring on the likes of Viera and deJong not start with them.
Personally if i was managing another team and i saw the opposition lined up so defensively i'd be more up for it thinking that they dont fancy it and that would make me believe they feared us, because if i attacked they'll just sit further and further back.

We should play to attack, then once we've got to close the game out, bring on the likes of Viera and deJong not start with them.
=============================

my thoughts exactly.... .......

Answer = Italian Manager

 

[Gelsons Dad]

League results under Mancini
played---w---d---l---f---a---points
13------7---3---3--22--12----24

Didn't I just say that the stats may look good on paper?

This sums up how ridiculous your post is.

The "stats" are in the end what counts. No one won the league on artistic merit mate. This is a sporting contest not a dancing competition.

 

[Anonymous]

Didn't I just say that the stats may look good on paper?

This sums up how ridiculous your post is.

The "stats" are in the end what counts. No one won the league on artistic merit mate. This is a sporting contest not a dancing competition.

Ha ha. You tried patronizing and sarcasm and got it back in spades. So now you're going straight in with the insults.

 

[fathellensbellend]

moyes has beaten mancini twice now with the exact same tactic.

close us down quickly, get tight, and put your foot in, and basically knock us out of our step.

they have some very underrated players at everton, pienaar, osman arteta and cahill were quicker, better on the ball and more inventive than any of our midfield.

saha is a top striker who holds the ball and brings players in, and their defence gives nothing away.

outplayed.

 

[The Fixer]

My opinion is mancini plays like this because he feels with the players he has at his disposal this is the only way to get positive results. I think he knows if he plays a more open game we will get ripped apart, and at the end of the day he's on orders to get a top4 slot.

 

[Marvin]

I think there's a fundamental issue with last night's match which nobody seems to have picked up on. As we have done pretty much since the day Mancini arrived, we played last night to first and foremost not concede a goal. I'm not sure thats the right way to approach EVERY match you play. I can understand it when you play against the best teams in the world, but taking that approach in the premiership against teams like Everton will lead to a mish mash of results. It's a problem Liverpool have had under Benitez for years now. I was actually talking to a scouser a few days ago who was saying the only time the shackles came off was the second half of last season - and lo and behold it was their best league campaign under Rafa...

Let me pre-empt a few of the more obvious things which will get flung at me. Firstly, I'm not advocating some type of gung-ho approach, and neither am I complaining about being "entertained". I also accept that we have had serious problems at the back and we needed someone to come in and organize us as a team, and the back 4 as a unit. But there needs to be a balance struck at some point.

Frankly, anyone who thinks last night was just a "blip", or "one of those games", is being far too generous to the players and coaching staff. Under Mancini, whenever we've come up against a decent team we've looked poor. There's plenty of huff and puff about us, but no real bite. Our goal scoring stats look good on paper, but that's 3 wins in 10, and frankly we look as toothless at times as we did under Sven.

As others have said there's no need to panic, and it is all still in our hands, but it is slowly slipping. No use in saying our players aren't good enough or the squad isn't good enough. We've struggled to beat some appalling teams recently, and I refuse to accept that that's because we don't have the quality in all departments to do so.

Oh, and one more thing. I stand by what I said a few weeks back. We'll never win the league under Mancini...

I must be thick as I am just not getting this

What is defensive about

-------------Given----------
Richards-Toure-Kompany- Zab
-----------De Jong----------
--------Ireland--Barry-------
Johnson---Tevez------Bellamy

You want to see a defensive team? Look at Everton. For some of the time they had no forwards at all

The team would have been more adventurous with Bridge in the team.

I can accept that De Jong and Barry are not great going forward - but when Ireland gets injured, and Johnson is out for the season who would you play in there?

This is just criticism for criticism's sake.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

This sums up how ridiculous your post is.

The "stats" are in the end what counts. No one won the league on artistic merit mate. This is a sporting contest not a dancing competition.

Ha ha. You tried patronizing and sarcasm and got it back in spades. So now you're going straight in with the insults.

No, I dissected and discredited your nonsense, to which your reply was "stunning piece of insight". Your sarcasm didn't hide the fact that my stunning pieces of insight answered your points with facts.

You think I'm anti Hughes and think Mancini can do no wrong. Make a little search of my posts today and you will find I was quite critical of last night performance. You however have shown your colours time and again and will never accept Mancini even when it's obvious that he is out performing the previous manager by some margin.

Your perception of negative play is simply because you are not familiar with the tactic. The points per game tally doesn't lie.

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

Whilst it may be true we'll not win the league under Mancini.

It's worth pointing out that no manager in my lifetime looked like he could deliver anything above 10th place in the top flight.

Honorary exception being Mr Peter Reid.

We need to be optimistic. Fuck it, let's get real, if Hughes was still here we'd be 14th. Oh but apparently we'd have definitely beaten the rags over 2 legs (based on Hughes past record vs the rags I assume, played 3 lost 3) so that's OK then.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

The pattern of our play makes it easier for the opposition not to concede. People say they look upon the fixture as their cup final, but it's nothing of the sort. We have an approach which is easy to negate if you are a mediocre team with one or two decent players in the right positions. We do not have the wherewithal to swap approaches when Plan A is up against it.

 

[Anonymous]

[
No, I dissected and discredited your nonsense, to which your reply was "stunning piece of insight". Your sarcasm didn't hide the fact that my stunning pieces of insight answered your points with facts.

I didn't see your post as discrediting anything I posted, neither was it full of useful facts which had any relevance to my OP.

You think I'm anti Hughes and think Mancini can do no wrong. Make a little search of my posts today and you will find I was quite critical of last night performance. You however have shown your colours time and again and will never accept Mancini even when it's obvious that he is out performing the previous manager by some margin.

If you were quite critical of Mancini, then please allow me the courtesy of being the same, without resorting to the stupid comment about him not being Welsh.

Your perception of negative play is simply because you are not familiar with the tactic. The points per game tally doesn't lie.

My perception of negative play is based on what i see with my own eyes, and something which countless other City fans I know have agreed with. You might see things differently, but try not to be so condescending, and leave the cheap insults for the kids.

 

[Rammy Blue]

I must be thick as I am just not getting this

What is defensive about

-------------Given----------
Richards-Toure-Kompany- Zab
-----------De Jong----------
--------Ireland--Barry-------
Johnson---Tevez------Bellamy

You want to see a defensive team? Look at Everton. For some of the time they had no forwards at all

The team would have been more adventurous with Bridge in the team.

I can accept that De Jong and Barry are not great going forward - but when Ireland gets injured, and Johnson is out for the season who would you play in there?

This is just criticism for criticism's sake.

Spot on Marvin, as I have said earlier our weakness is a creative mid/box to box midfielder who can press towards the box to open up space out wide or knock a 30 yard pass to feet.

Doesn't matter how much "firepower" is on the pitch, without proper service we are just reliant on counter attack and/or individual brilliance.