Teenage Intifada

donachie&chadvalleybigleague said:
Or you might say the Balfour declaration and the later plans for partition in violating the rights of the settled people (i.e. self determination rights violated) was the start to the then inevitable war. Lots of ways to write history. One thing is for certain, the British didn't half leave things in a mess.
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That's not history, it's your opinion.
 
urmston said:
Israel would be sat in its 1948, UN sanctioned borders except for the fact that it was was repeatedly threatened and attacked by the thankfully incompetent forces of all the countries which surrounded it.

When countries pick fights with powerful neighbours they tend to have to live with the consequences of their folly.

The moral of the story is don't pick fights you can't win.

Israel is a powerful first world country in a third world location.

Effectively it can do as it wishes.
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Wow, how scary are you. When Israel was under attack from its Arab neighbors I would support Israel completely. But past misdemeanors do not give Israel the right to do as it pleases in the region. Real eye for an eye stuff.

As for it being a powerful first world country it has the USA to thank for that. Their funds and weapons have made Israel the powerhouse it is. I'm sure the Palestinians would love their own "iron dome".

You are right however about the fact that it can effectively do as it wishes. Israel is the only country that can invade its neighbour and the west doesn't say a word.

Hypocrisy and double standards that sicken me to the pit of my stomach. You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
Paul_Powers_Tash said:
Wow, how scary are you. When Israel was under attack from its Arab neighbors I would support Israel completely. But past misdemeanors do not give Israel the right to do as it pleases in the region. Real eye for an eye stuff.

As for it being a powerful first world country it has the USA to thank for that. Their funds and weapons have made Israel the powerhouse it is. I'm sure the Palestinians would love their own "iron dome".

You are right however about the fact that it can effectively do as it wishes. Israel is the only country that can invade its neighbour and the west doesn't say a word.

Hypocrisy and double standards that sicken me to the pit of my stomach. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Israel developed Iron Dome, not the Americans.
 
grunge said:
I'll hold my hands up on this, did some more digging and it appears the reports the other year ( last year? ) were wrong, I'll blaim John Snow ;)

But still its no surprise that its happening with the way Israel act.
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What are you saying. You admit you are wrong and then say but still it is no surprise it is happening. You just admitted IT isn't happening.
 
Paul_Powers_Tash said:
Wow, how scary are you. When Israel was under attack from its Arab neighbors I would support Israel completely. But past misdemeanors do not give Israel the right to do as it pleases in the region. Real eye for an eye stuff.

As for it being a powerful first world country it has the USA to thank for that. Their funds and weapons have made Israel the powerhouse it is. I'm sure the Palestinians would love their own "iron dome".

You are right however about the fact that it can effectively do as it wishes. Israel is the only country that can invade its neighbour and the west doesn't say a word.

Hypocrisy and double standards that sicken me to the pit of my stomach. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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If I lived in the middle east as an ordinary person I'd probably want Israel to take over the whole region.

I'd get the vote, a free press, freedom of religion and all the advantages of western living.

I can't see why anyone looks forward to a Palestinian state as all its inhabitants apart from the totalitarian people in charge of it would have to do exactly what they were told with no freedoms at all. Why hope for that?
 
Stick to my motto - no further east than Greece for my holidays and I don't have to worry too much. Each blames the other. As a laymen with no understanding of it. I would say the a fair few Palestinians are mad Volotile fuckers and not lily White and the Isreal government seem to be a bit Cuntish and they don't make good neighbours.

So avoid and look forward to weekend.

I won't be far off with my summing up.

And then leaves thread!
 
What I can't understand is this:

Israel is not in Europe. However Israel competes in both the Eurovision Song Contest and the European Championships.

WTF is going on with that?
 
Paul_Powers_Tash said:
Wow, how scary are you. When Israel was under attack from its Arab neighbors I would support Israel completely. But past misdemeanors do not give Israel the right to do as it pleases in the region. Real eye for an eye stuff.
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I completely agree the fact that the Arab nations attacked Israel in 1948 does not in itself justify the actions of Israel now. But you can't fail to see the connection between all the events from 1917 to 2015 that led to this situation. They're all part of of a series of actions that had both intended and unintended consequences, with justifications and blame on both sides at one time or other.

For instance, Israel couldn't have built the settlements if it hadn't occupied the West Bank. And it wouldn't have been able to occupy the West Bank if Jordan hadn't ignored its offer to stay out of the conflict in 1967. And there would have been no conflict in 1967 if Egypt hadn't decided to puff out its chest and start sabre-rattling. And Jordan would have had no incentive to get involved in 1967 if it had handed over the West Bank to the Palestinians in 1948 instead of annexing it. Etc, etc.

None of that excuses either settlement building, brutality towards the Palestinians or the murder of Israeli civilians.

And to answer another of your points, in 1950 China invaded Tibet and still occupies it today, bringing in its own population, trying to wipe out the culture of the country and brutally repressing the Tibetans. Yet nothing was said and our Chancellor even tours China to promote Britain while we daren't even officially speak to the representative of the Tibetan people.
 
urmston said:
The way people who criticise Israel too often give themselves away as anti-Semitic is that they devote a suspiciously large amount of energy in pointing out Israel's alleged misdeeds while studiously ignoring those of anyone else.

It's a dead giveaway.

It's as obvious as if someone was constantly ranting on and on about crimes committed by black or Asian people, with no context or comparison with crimes committed by white people.
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Do you think people who go on and on abt muslims give themselves away as racist too?
 
Let's not forget that the Soviet Union occupied the whole of eastern Europe by force for 45 years after WW2, yet all the 'liberal' and 'progressive' types who now claim to be utterly outraged by Israel's occupation of some tiny slivers of land were completely unconcerned.

In fact, some of them thoroughly approved and were quite keen to tell us of the advantages of the Soviet way of doing things.

Again, we come back to the mystery of why lefty types have a particular and obsessive problem with Israel.

They assure us it isn't anti-Semitism, so just what is the cause?
 
The blue phantom said:
Do you think people who go on and on abt muslims give themselves away as racist too?
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Quite a few on here do ..... Yes and I have had far more ties with people about that or blaming immigrants than ever on this thread.

The fact that I am almost in agreement with Urmston on this thread who is usually a polar opposite shows just how extreme and mis directed some of the anti Israeli nonsense is.

The fact is Israel is surronded by much larger populations many many many times bigger who would like to see it wiped off the face of the earth, add that to the fact it's very foundation was because of one of the worst genocides humanity will ever see. Every day the population of this country faces up to governments who won't recognise it and missiles, stabbing, running over against their civilians by freedom fighters.

On the other side people whose land has been taken , whose economy has been disintegrated, who have seen kids blown up in front of them and who have nothing see a wealthy powerful enemy that appears to do as it pleases and who they cannot fight as equals and who flout international law

Them most of the world pretend one side are white angels floating on fluffy clouds and the other side are evil satanic child murderers and give their support to extremists who survive and prosper by keeping the killing going whilst sanctamoniously lecturing anyone on the other side as racist etc . Netanyahu and Hamas get what they want and everyone is happy.

Most of the people on both sides wanting peace and justice clearly don't as everything about their behaviour sets out to extend not solve the situation
 
Bloody hell just seen that on news at ten. Palestinian with a knife (I presume he must have attacked someone or been about to) shot tens of times whilst running away by Israeli police. Why would you do that?!! Only young as well.
 
worsleyweb said:
Bloody hell just seen that on news at ten. Palestinian with a knife (I presume he must have attacked someone or been about to) shot tens of times whilst running away by Israeli police. Why would you do that?!! Only young as well.
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On the one hand, one less knife-wielding maniac criminal in the world. On the other, probably excessive force. I wouldn't blame a policeman for shooting someone wielding a knife in a threatening way though if they felt at risk. Running away is shaky ground though, just ask Tony Martin.
 
Johnsonontheleft said:
On the one hand, one less knife-wielding maniac criminal in the world. On the other, probably excessive force. I wouldn't blame a policeman for shooting someone wielding a knife in a threatening way though if they felt at risk. Running away is shaky ground though, just ask Tony Martin.
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When I said why would you do that! I meant knife someone knowing you would get shot within minutes. Nutter.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
I completely agree the fact that the Arab nations attacked Israel in 1948 does not in itself justify the actions of Israel now. But you can't fail to see the connection between all the events from 1917 to 2015 that led to this situation. They're all part of of a series of actions that had both intended and unintended consequences, with justifications and blame on both sides at one time or other.

For instance, Israel couldn't have built the settlements if it hadn't occupied the West Bank. And it wouldn't have been able to occupy the West Bank if Jordan hadn't ignored its offer to stay out of the conflict in 1967. And there would have been no conflict in 1967 if Egypt hadn't decided to puff out its chest and start sabre-rattling. And Jordan would have had no incentive to get involved in 1967 if it had handed over the West Bank to the Palestinians in 1948 instead of annexing it. Etc, etc.

None of that excuses either settlement building, brutality towards the Palestinians or the murder of Israeli civilians.

And to answer another of your points, in 1950 China invaded Tibet and still occupies it today, bringing in its own population, trying to wipe out the culture of the country and brutally repressing the Tibetans. Yet nothing was said and our Chancellor even tours China to promote Britain while we daren't even officially speak to the representative of the Tibetan people.
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I largely agree and it highlights mans inability to learn from past mistakes. I'm a little embarrassed to state what is in structure very simple and very obvious but pressure should be brought to bear on Israel to stop it's expansion and negotiate a settlement that agrees and officially and publicly recognises national borders and recognises Palestinian sovereignty. In return Palestine should reciprocate and acknowledge and respect the rights of Israel.

Easy to say but in practice this is no easy task and would require real leadership. Instead America has seemed happy to stoke the flames although there may be a slight hope with a minor change in tone from the Obama administration over the last few months.

How much land is the death of one Israeli or Palestinian child worth?
 
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