Matty said:
Van Persies left peg said:
Van Persie and Rooney are better, all accusations of bias aside sheer statistical evidence alone tells you that without doubt before you even get into the all round abilities of them i.e assists, set piece play, ability to play in other positions, technical astuteness, link up play etc, i genuinely dont think you can make a serious argument for Aguero and Tevez being a better strike partnership if your taking bias out of the equation completely which to be fair i understand is very difficult to do in this case, it would be interesting to do a poll on this taking out opinions of both City and United fans and asking the rest of the league as a whole who they think is the better or would fear facing more, it would probably give you a better idea and would certainly take any accusations of bias away.
Statistic wise though, Van Persie got 40 goals in all comps for Arsenal last season, that was easily better than anyone else, he got 30 in the league alone, again comfortably the best, Rooney then comes second with 36 in all comps and 27 in the league last season, neither Aguero nor Tevez have ever posted such numbers in the premier league as a partnership or otherwise, Van Persie and Rooney were the top 2 in the country last season and it looks like thats got every chance of continuing this time round to.
Not sure what this seasons stats are for the City pair but for Van Persie:
15 goals - 6 assists in all competitions
League stats:
12 goals 6 assists
Rooney:
8 goals 9 assists in total.
League stats
7 goals 9 assists
So as individuals RVP has contributed to 21 goals himself, Rooney 17, combined thats 23 goals/15 assists as a pair, 38 goals scored or created between the two.
Like i said earlier im not sure what the stats are for Aguero and Tevez so far this season im sure someone on here is privy to them but ill wager heavily they're not nearly as good.
Being a lesser partnership than Van Persie and Rooney is no slight on either Aguero or Tevez that point should be made very clear, they both very good players and clearly your best partnership, but a lesser partnership they are, they're just nowhere near as potent which to be fair is what some of you have already said before i get lynched for making that comment.
A statistical comparison of the two pairings isn't really all that fair for several reasons:-
1 - Mancini seems to insist on playing Dzeko and Balotelli rather than settling on Tevez and Aguero, so they haven't had the opportunities to play alongside each other as often.
2 - Aguero missed the first month of the season through injury (admittedly Rooney has missed time too).
3 - We don't rely on Tevez and Aguero as much as United rely on RVP and Rooney. With Yaya, Silva, Nasri and Dzeko (goals alone) we have game changing players in several positions, United's ability to contribute to the game from other postions is far more limited. Put it this way, tomorrow RVP, Rooney, Tevez and Aguero are all, coincidentally, injured and out for the season. Who'd struggle the most? We'd both struggle, but I'd suggest United are far more dependent upon their 2 than we are on our 2 and, as such, it's United that would be hit the hardest.
Also the "38 goals scored or created between the two" comment is a little misleading, that's assuming that RVP has not assisted any Rooney goals, and vice versa. If RVP crosses, and Rooney scores (as happened for the 3rd against Sunderland) that's 1 assist for RVP, 1 goal for Rooney, so 2 goals "scored or created" according to your measure. It isn't 2 goals though is it, it's just the 1 in reality.
Thanks for the response, i was expecting plenty of abuse for my post but im more than happy to debate it as i think its a very decent topic for discussion.
On your first point, this season yes you have rotated your starting front 2 a lot more for various reasons, but we have only really had the Van Persie - Rooney partnership since early october due to Rooney missing the first 6 weeks with that gashed leg injury, and even then weve often used Rooney either wide left or wide right and deep in centre midfield for various games already this season, id say weve only had them playing as a genuine front 2 for about 6 games this season at most, you did have Aguero and Tevez play together a number of times last season to, so theres probably very little in it either way in truth, it would be very interesting to see how many goals both partnerships have directly assisted for each other, from the little weve (United fans) seen of it Van Persie and Rooney seem to have clicked very well for us in that regard and Rooney especially has layed on a number of goals for Van Persie, Van persie repaid the favour at the weekend, but i dont have the stats, i will look them up.
Your second point, as mentioned above Rooney has missed most of the early season with injury but you pointed that out to so thats not really a factor.
Point 3, not sure, as individuals Dzeko and Balotelli are better players than Hernandez and Welbeck i agree, they're bigger names with bigger reputations etc, however if you look at their goal output isnt it almost identical? Hernandez has had almost the identical season to Dzeko in that hes scored most of his goals coming off the bench, not sure how many goals Dzeko has this season but Hernandez has 8 i think in all competitions, coming off the bench to score most of those some being crucial winners much like Dzeko, id imagine both Hernandez and Dzeko have almost identical goal to minutes ratios so far this season?
And to be honest both Welbeck and Balotelli have been poor, neither have really contributed at all so far and ironically both have only 1 league goal to their name, so the stats suggest theres nothing really in that, also as for the other attacking support positions i slightly disagree there, outside of your 4 strikers you have Silva and Nasri as your support/creative players, Toures more of a midfielder in my book much like Anderson is for us, both better going forward but not really creative players (and no before that gets jumped on im not comparing Toure to Anderson), outside of Silva and Nasri what would be next in line in terms of your wide/creative options? Sinclair? Milner? im genuinely asking as i dont know, it seems from the outside like youve favoured using one of your strikers wide over the likes of Sinclair from what i can tell, i think if anything happened to Silva and Nasri youd really struggle for creativity and genuine options, is that fair? again im not making a statement im genuinely asking a question, what would your City team be if you had no Silva or Nasri to pick from?
Wih us i feel we have a little more depth and variation in these positions, at the moment we are using Valencia and Young, both have played well in recent weeks, yet its highly debatable whether either is or should be first choice in the first place, id personally have Nani and Kagawa but thats another discussion for another forum, my point is id say the 4 options of Nani,Kagawa,Valencia and young is superior depth and variation to Silva,Nasri,Sinclair?Milner? thats just my view of course, but i think thats pretty fair, i dont think we lose much in terms of attacking quality no matter which 2 we select, i think the drop off from Silva and Nasri to Sinclair and Milner is much more vast, this of course changes slightly if we lose Nani and dont sign a replacement which is highly possible.
As for your last point, i see what your saying i think you got my drift though, the direct link up between a strike partnership is a key factor in any comparison to another, for instance we had Yorke and Cole, no where near the individual talents of any of the 4 strikers in question here, yet together they formed one of the all time great partnerships in the premier league, so its a factor.
-- Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:07 pm --
vaziooo said:
since 9th dec alot of rag wums on this site
Aimed at myself i presume? please educate me here how am i wumming? do you even know what a wum is? im not winding anyone up or certainly not deliberately anyway, im debating a topic that relates to my team respectfully i might add and am backing it up with reasons, thats called debate, not wumming, if i had merely come in and said Van Persie and Rooney are way better and literally backed it up with nothing fair enough, but i didnt and havnt, if you dont agree with me fine, debate my points (as others have) and tell me why not, dont sit there and criticise and offer nothing by way of response.
