The 2016 Brexit debate in a nutshell............ oh wait sorry its how did WW1 start lol

[Mr Kobayashi]

Saying that my grandkid likes dancing around in a gestapo uniform

Thank you very much Mel Brookes.

About time he moves to home delivery or meals and wheels.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I think you've missed my point.

Whether we should have gone to war is irrelevant. I'm still trying to work out what "lie" Blackadder invented / perpetuated. What about the lie about how sweet and fitting it is to die for one's country?

Somewhere between Lord Kitchener, Wilfred Owen, Douglas Haig, Robert Graves, Joan Littlewood, Richard Curtis, Ben Elton, Lloyd George, the Kaiser and even Winston Churchill lies the truth of the matter, that would be my guess, but absolute truth? Impossible, the war was experienced by ordinary soldiers on the western front, politicians in Paris and London, Army officers, colonial troops, Admirals of the Royal Navy, stokers on merchant ships, Turks, Russians, Armenians and Germans in completely different ways.

But what one should not do is embrace the pernicious lie of wilfully callous officers, happy to send men to their death, by dint of their indifference and stupidity, that is a 100% lie and Blackadder derives a great deal of humour from that. The myth of Butcher Haig that became widespread in the 30s and persists today is simply not backed up by the facts.

And I don't have much time for historical associations formed decades after the events telling us "how it was really", or (however enlightening) debates about the casus belli. (As my father was quite old when I was born, I may be the only Bluemooner whose father was in WW1.... but he had "a good war" and never saw action.)

But, as you say you..." don't have much time for historical associations formed decades after the events telling us "how it was really"

If that's the case you have one of two options.

1. Not give it a thought.

2. Choose the narrative you like best and stick with that.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Somewhere between Lord Kitchener, Wilfred Owen, Douglas Haig, Robert Graves, Joan Littlewood, Richard Curtis, Ben Elton, Lloyd George, the Kaiser and even Winston Churchill lies the truth of the matter, that would be my guess, but absolute truth? Impossible, the war was experienced by ordinary soldiers on the western front, politicians in Paris and London, Army officers, colonial troops, Admirals of the Royal Navy, stokers on merchant ships, Turks, Russians, Armenians and Germans in completely different ways.

But what one should not do is embrace the pernicious lie of wilfully callous officers, happy to send men to their death, by dint of their indifference and stupidity, that is a 100% lie and Blackadder derives a great deal of humour from that. The myth of Butcher Haig that became widespread in the 30s and persists today is simply not backed up by the facts.



But, as you say you..." don't have much time for historical associations formed decades after the events telling us "how it was really"

If that's the case you have one of two options.

1. Not give it a thought.

2. Choose the narrative you like best and stick with that.

I long for the day that Britain can move on from both world wars. My grandma was 12 when WW2 started. She’s 94 now. There aren’t many survivors left.

The only people left arguing about it didn’t experience it.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

It's not arguing over the event, but arguing over the lessons one learns from it.

You can either learn this....

Or this....

Or this...

Or any combination between, around or far away.

I get that. I long for the day that you don’t have to take either side.

Its not about either for most. The former is just learned from their parents. I’m hoping that as those generations die, the hatred dies a death.

The first world war is already starting to be looked at more historically than emotionally. The Second World War needs to do the same ASAP. Then we can move on.

 

[Rascal]

PS: I get the distinct impression that you believe everything you read and hear from any "establishment" source has an agenda, and that agenda is always the justification and perpetuation of capitalism.

Not everything, but there is a certain amount that is.

History is used to perpetuate national myth, it emboldens the myths, the little ships of Dunkirk being a prime example. Dunkirk is portrayed as a victory of British pluck against German might, when it was a defeat, we got hammered, it never even went to penalties.

The Blitz spirit often invoked by mainly right wing politicians ignores the fact Churchill and the Royal family were booed in East End of London. It ignores the fact there 60,000 conscientious objectors in London alone.

These add towards the profile of a Little Englander, to British exceptionalism. These are the myths that fuel their nationalism and add value to the capitalism as being the British way of life.

 

[Vic]

Somewhere between Lord Kitchener, Wilfred Owen, Douglas Haig, Robert Graves, Joan Littlewood, Richard Curtis, Ben Elton, Lloyd George, the Kaiser and even Winston Churchill lies the truth of the matter, that would be my guess, but absolute truth? Impossible, the war was experienced by ordinary soldiers on the western front, politicians in Paris and London, Army officers, colonial troops, Admirals of the Royal Navy, stokers on merchant ships, Turks, Russians, Armenians and Germans in completely different ways.

But what one should not do is embrace the pernicious lie of wilfully callous officers, happy to send men to their death, by dint of their indifference and stupidity, that is a 100% lie and Blackadder derives a great deal of humour from that. The myth of Butcher Haig that became widespread in the 30s and persists today is simply not backed up by the facts.



But, as you say you..." don't have much time for historical associations formed decades after the events telling us "how it was really"

If that's the case you have one of two options.

1. Not give it a thought.

2. Choose the narrative you like best and stick with that.

You forgot Allan Clark.

Well, back to the OP. No doubt in 20 years time the narrative will be that Brexit would have been a success but for the donkeys we had as leaders. And but for the traitors who never thought it was a good idea.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

History is all about interpretation and is constantly being reinterpreted, which is why we have new books being written all the time.

There are different interpretations of WW1, and a lot of the discussion is ultimately linked to politics because you cannot divorce historical interpretation from political philosophy. This does not mean that anyone fails to recognise the sacrifice in lives, the courage of the (mainly citizen) soldiers, and so on.

Having said that, my grandfather, who never lived to see Blackadder and who rarely had a bad word for anyone, always called F.M. Haig 'that Bloody Fool, Haig.' So a negative view of WW1 and the tactics used did not originate with a comedy programme. BTW, he also said that the Boer War was about 'stealing the Boers' diamonds' and nothing more. Probably not everyone agrees with that analysis either.

They were taking the mickey out of the first world war while it was taking place....... history is written by the winners.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Can I first of all say a couple of things: i) this thread has gone off on a bit of a weird tangent! and ii) I hate to see City fans get really upset with one another, so lets not....

However, can I pick up on a couple of points? I was very interested to read what I have quoted above, perfectfumble, I can see why you have got so cheesed off by Blackadder IV now. I actually work in education (with the older primary children) and consequently this opinion is of interest. Can I assure you we don't just stick on Episode 6 of Blackadder Four and then sit back and think WWI - tick. We do much much more, including in Year 5 a lot of work on the Christmas truce of 1914 (thought I'd mention that as this is a football site).

However, I have used the last ten minutes of that Blackadder programme in the classroom and I don't regret it, obviously with much discussion before and after it is shown. Interestingly, I saw a documentary about the making of that sequence. When it was originally completed the crew and actors were crapping it - the BBC budget did not exactly allow a 'Saving Private Ryan' type scene and it looked terrible. But someone had the idea to really slow it down, play the music differently and then fade to a field of poppies and.... it works.

In addition, as much as I would like to show Peter Jackson's 'They Shall Not Grow Old', if I did I would be out of a job the next day. It is rated 15. We have shown 'War Horse' in the past (it's a 12) but letters have to sent home first and the option given to allow a pupil to do something else instead - it's a bloody minefield (no pun intended) 'cos if one parent complains and the rules haven't been followed, it all goes to pot.

Can I just say a couple of other things: around the time of the recent Euros when Germany were lined up to play England, there was some discussion about the media and to put it bluntly: that "Achtung Surrender" headline from the 1996 tournament would not have appeared in 2021 - things have moved on.

Finally, to return to the Dad's Army v Blackadder IV debate, its important to remember that Blackadder aired in 1989 so some 70 years after the events it portrays. Dad's Army started in 1968 so only about 25 years after its setting and many of the people making that show will have been involved in World War 2. Adder was written by 'alternative' comedian Ben Elton (with Richard Curtis) Dad's Army was much more traditional - or 'cozy' as someone said. These are some of the reasons why the tone is different, but they are both good in their own ways.

Thanks for this.

I'd never really thought about the parameters you operate under in teaching children about great events, like the First World War.

I'd be interested to know what angle you take, I ask this with no hidden agenda as I'm genuinely interested.

 

[The perfect fumble]

The first world war is already starting to be looked at more historically than emotionally. The Second World War needs to do the same ASAP. Then we can move on.

If the wrong lessons are learnt we head down dead ends, hence Brexit, hence dreams of CANZUK and British Empire 2.0, hence xenophobia and Farage and Johnson's watermelon smiles.

This is Harold Macmillan, who as well as having been Prime Minister was a also, in his youth, an officer in the First World War, speaking at the height of the Miners strike....

''It breaks my heart to see - and I cannot interfere - what is happening in our country today. This terrible strike, by the best men in the world, who beat the Kaiser's and Hitler's armies and never gave in. It is pointless and we cannot afford that kind of thing.

''Then there is the growing division of comparative prosperity in the south and an ailing north and Midlands. We used to have battles and rows, but they were quarrels. Now there is a new kind of wicked hatred"

That was nearly 40 years ago.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

If the wrong lessons are learnt we move down dead ends, hence Brexit, hence dreams of CANZUK and British Empire 2.0, hence xenophobia and Farage and Johnson's watermelon smiles.

This is Harold Macmillan, who as well as having been Prime Minister was a also, in his youth, an officer in the First World War, speaking at the height of the Miners strike....

''It breaks my heart to see - and I cannot interfere - what is happening in our country today. This terrible strike, by the best men in the world, who beat the Kaiser's and Hitler's armies and never gave in. It is pointless and we cannot afford that kind of thing.

''Then there is the growing division of comparative prosperity in the south and an ailing north and Midlands. We used to have battles and rows, but they were quarrels. Now there is a new kind of wicked hatred"

That was nearly 40 years ago.

That’s my point though. The world has moved on. If the strike happened today, people would call them lazy bastards.

All we have left from the wars are the bad aspects. The feeling that the U.K. is superior, when it doesn't show that to the world.