The Calais problem (merged)

EalingBlue2 said:
Plenty do, the rise of UKIP and the furore constantly raised by the Express/Mail etc is a strong move for isolationism and against being an opening and welcoming country. Plenty of people in this thread are clearly neither. There is also a big unthinking group who believe genuinely you can make it all a problem for Jordan , Egypt and Turkey with no risk to that. There are also plenty of people on family income 50 or 100k £ PA who have no empathy or sympathy for someone with a family income of a $100 in rice .

The trouble is international action requires the wealthiest to give up a fraction of their wealth which non seem to be keen on.

Plenty on both sides argue for simplistic, unrealistic and naive policies with no thought to an overall long term solution with short term fixes and sound bites all that matters.
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UKIP are not against immigration far from it, the fact remains that we are an open welcoming bunch of people in this country but that open and welcoming nature is being tested. This Russell Brand type of soundbyte politik isn't getting us anywhere fast and a lot of the anger directed at the high earners sometimes smacks of envy. We don't live in this great socialist utopia where all the wealth is shared and I don't want to live under that system.
But in the comfort of a warm house with food in the fridge and access to what we want it's easy to practice public speaking from the privacy of an internet forum.What I find annoying and cloying about pity politics is its holier than though attitude whilst still enjoying the fruits of capitalism, if you want to become a martyr for socialism then by all means sell up give all your money to charity and go and live in a wood somewhere.
 
yorknomore said:
UKIP are not against immigration far from it, the fact remains that we are an open welcoming bunch of people in this country but that open and welcoming nature is being tested. This Russell Brand type of soundbyte politik isn't getting us anywhere fast and a lot of the anger directed at the high earners sometimes smacks of envy. We don't live in this great socialist utopia where all the wealth is shared and I don't want to live under that system.
But in the comfort of a warm house with food in the fridge and access to what we want it's easy to practice public speaking from the privacy of an internet forum.What I find annoying and cloying about pity politics is its holier than though attitude whilst still enjoying the fruits of capitalism, if you want to become a martyr for socialism then by all means sell up give all your money to charity and go and live in a wood somewhere.
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The trouble is martyrs from both sides don't practise what they preach. Most wealthy capitalists don't really believe in the free market at all, they want every advantage of a socialist style collective state and every advantage of capitalism. They support borders when it protects their wealth and want them torn down when it stops their growth. The west wants the poorest eating their food, buying their grain, building their economies for the gains of the west but is utterly outraged when these countries want the same free economic rights to come and make money. If capitalism was truly the world policy we would be far far more equal than we are as we would be if we were socialist.

However we actually live in a hybrid where the wealthy of the west try to use every market distorting , subsidising protectionist trick in the book when it helps them whilst pleading outrage every time everything else isn't free market. That makes most of us utterly hypocritical.

At least the true capitalists and free marketers are consistent as are true socialists though they are very few.

What you say is true about some people but equally it is easy to sit in a nice warm home and piously complain about the outrage of economic migrants. It is easy to to apply rules to those in refugee camps when you have everything and you made the rules. It is this envy and resentment I will never understand - rich people earning 150k a year bitter angry and resentful about a refugee getting a £500 hand out or a roof over their head. Those who have It all angrily despising those who have nothing. I will never ever get it.

It is like bitter united fans hating city for getting money - I dont get that either. Envy towards those with more yes , to those with less is nasty.
 
The problem Ealing is that you don't seem to berate both sides and if like you say you are undecided and in the middle you are still baulking from the sidelines from the comfort and benefit of enjoying a capitalist lifestyle and dare i say the carbon footprint of Optimus prime. This thread was about the Calais situation until it got sidetracked into rich v poor by the red brigade.
 
There doesn't seem to be anyone left from the other side and I guess I find it harder to berate someone who comes from an altruistic angle even if it is wrong as compared to a selfish angle . On that though you have a fair point.

On Calais the people there need to be safely stopped. Genuine refugees need to be given a much greater chance to be moved away from Jordan and settled evenly across the world based on a fair spread and on who can afford them. The west needs to accept that some of its standard of living will slide as the world slowly becomes more equal as without that in the global world we have now it will come from force or war inevitably.

The Calais situation is all about economic inequality, it isn't about asylum , but extreme economic poverty is every bit as repressive and harmful as war and dictators.

The world is though in trouble because the only solution is true capitalism or true socialism but we are collectively too selfish to embrace either


As for my carbon footprint that is possibly true, it rather depends on whether the renewable energy premium and carbon offsets I pay are real or just a farce to appease my conscience
 
EalingBlue2 said:
On Calais the people there need to be safely stopped. Genuine refugees need to be given a much greater chance to be moved away from Jordan and settled evenly across the world based on a fair spread and on who can afford them.
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I just couldn't agree any more with that sentiment if I tried to, it seems fair and it seems just the only addition to that would be space and how much of it you have to play with plus we really don't want immigration to just become a further tool for criminals to ply their trade so we need to vet vet and vet again.
Altruism in the hands of the right people would be marvellous but altruism in the hands of the politically disingenuous would be horrific even though even discussing it on a forum wouldn't bring it any closer to it happening because it's a mindset that just isn't going to happen. On a selfish note I don't want to relinquish my standard of living and it's not that high because I feel guilty a well is needed in Africa or a child living in a favela in Brazil needs shoes,selfish I know but that's the long and the short of it. I can however nod all day long with you about corporate taxation or the lack of it but nodding is probably all we can do and the establishment know that.
The Huffington post link shown upthread mentioned the "Losing of passports" and these lost passports prevent proper checks being carried out, even if the passports have been taken by criminal gangs the person could still tell officials where he is from (I say he because the overwhelming demographic of these overstayers are young males) it's common sense that you can't claim asylum if you don't admit who you are and you can't be a legal immigrant if you don't come clean either.
 
yorknomore said:
I just couldn't agree any more with that sentiment if I tried to, it seems fair and it seems just the only addition to that would be space and how much of it you have to play with plus we really don't want immigration to just become a further tool for criminals to ply their trade so we need to vet vet and vet again.
Altruism in the hands of the right people would be marvellous but altruism in the hands of the politically disingenuous would be horrific even though even discussing it on a forum wouldn't bring it any closer to it happening because it's a mindset that just isn't going to happen. On a selfish note I don't want to relinquish my standard of living and it's not that high because I feel guilty a well is needed in Africa or a child living in a favela in Brazil needs shoes,selfish I know but that's the long and the short of it. I can however nod all day long with you about corporate taxation or the lack of it but nodding is probably all we can do and the establishment know that.
The Huffington post link shown upthread mentioned the "Losing of passports" and these lost passports prevent proper checks being carried out, even if the passports have been taken by criminal gangs the person could still tell officials where he is from (I say he because the overwhelming demographic of these overstayers are young males) it's common sense that you can't claim asylum if you don't admit who you are and you can't be a legal immigrant if you don't come clean either.
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I am not sure your age, job etc so I am commenting for me , not you or anyone else. The more I earn , the more everything seems to cost and the more I seem to need. I genuinely don't think I would be less happy to have a little less than I do. I am not a good enough person to do it alone though I could never do what some do and give up a lot to make a tiny tiny dent even if I would happily oh more tax to make a real difference.

But I genuinely feel lucky in life I benefited from good parents, good education, being born and raised in nice parts of one of the wealthiest country in the world. I find people similar to me who credit all they have as deserved hard work to be ridiculous as I know full well I have most of what I have because of the hand I was dealt not how I played it. You can win at poker with 2-7 off suit occasionally but if you get AA dealt then some of your win is luck even if you make the pot bigger by hard work.

As for passports the majority in the third world don't have them, any genuine refugee would not want one as their identity is what gets them persecuted , so yes people lose them for legitimate and illegitimate reasons and even more don't even have them and never have
 
EalingBlue2 said:
As for passports the majority in the third world don't have them, any genuine refugee would not want one as their identity is what gets them persecuted , so yes people lose them for legitimate and illegitimate reasons and even more don't even have them and never have
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Where are you from?
How did you get here?
Why do you want to live here?

If these questions were answered then they could be vetted and go through the system even without documentation or indeed for those who have thrown their passports away, it doesn't matter what they think because unless they answer these questions there isn't a chance they are going to become legal and neither should they expect that.

Where are you from? No answer
How did you get here? No answer
Why do you want to live here? No answer

This just isn't enough to give you access to any country and to be honest neither should it. How much bacon and beer I have in my fridge doesn't come into it.
 
You are right it isn't enough but you assume they have been educated on telling the truth and you also assume they have 100% trust in foreign authorities when all they have seen is authorities oppressing them and robbing them. People keep quiet because they are hiding things undoubtably but it can equally be driven by fear, by being misguided, by lacking trust or many other reasons.

Also if you are born and brought up in a refugee camp or with nothing you Barely have an identity you are a person with nothing but a name
 
EalingBlue2 said:
You are right it isn't enough but you assume they have been educated on telling the truth and you also assume they have 100% trust in foreign authorities when all they have seen is authorities oppressing them and robbing them. People keep quiet because they are hiding things undoubtably but it can equally be driven by fear, by being misguided, by lacking trust or many other reasons.

Also if you are born and brought up in a refugee camp or with nothing you Barely have an identity you are a person with nothing but a name
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You are probably giving most of them way too much credit and that's not a bad thing considering your stance but even if what you say is 100% correct those facts have to be established. I am not disagreeing with you when you suggest some of these people have been unwilling or scared to open up to officials and that's a sad state of the world today, but I can't see a way around it no matter how hard I look.
If there was a way we could make their lives better where they left then that would be brilliant but the mixture of interference from foreign governments and their own infighting/corrupt establishments are preventing that from happening.They are stuck between a rock and a hard place but the not knowing who they are and why they are here is certainly causing the confusion.
 
yorknomore said:
You are probably giving most of them way too much credit and that's not a bad thing considering your stance but even if what you say is 100% correct those facts have to be established. I am not disagreeing with you when you suggest some of these people have been unwilling or scared to open up to officials and that's a sad state of the world today, but I can't see a way around it no matter how hard I look.
If there was a way we could make their lives better where they left then that would be brilliant but the mixture of interference from foreign governments and their own infighting/corrupt establishments are preventing that from happening.They are stuck between a rock and a hard place but the not knowing who they are and why they are here is certainly causing the confusion.
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The reality is this where it all falls down , asylum seekers are from every spectrum as are those in Calais. Some are 100% genuine and fleeing for their lives, some are economic migrants fleeing a horrible life trying to make more, some were probably doing ok but want what those in the west have, others are possibly criminals or ex secret police escaping their past. My point is that the left pretend all are the former the right pretend all are the letter and both are wrong, one is being idealistic and naive the other deliberately condemnatory.

It is time it was accepted that the asylum seekers are no different to the rest of us they are a mix of good and bad, generalising about them is no different to generalising about white men, Muslims or northerners it is bollox
 
EalingBlue2 said:
It is time it was accepted that the asylum seekers are no different to the rest of us they are a mix of good and bad, generalising about them is no different to generalising about white men, Muslims or northerners it is bollox
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And when you gain access to a country then you need to explain who you are and where you are from and that's being treated with respect and dignity. Unless they crawl onto the back of a lorry they aren't going to be allowed access to this country, I agree with that and am not an advocate of a world without passports or checks. that's why we apply for visas even when authorities know who we are, it's a standard way of checking if you are safe to allow in.
It isn't rocket science by any stretch of the imagination.
 
They are after a better way of life & who can blame them.? I Listend to an Afghan bloke today who was hoping to get to the UK ,Get a job & a house then send for his wife & 6 children .many have got unrealistic expectations .building bigger fences sending more sniffer dogs & extra security will not solve the problem .People have been trying to get in illegally for donkeys years .the French are happy to turn a blind eye .& the British government are incompetent
 
cyberblue said:
They are after a better way of life & who can blame them.? I Listend to an Afghan bloke today who was hoping to get to the UK ,Get a job & a house then send for his wife & 6 children .many have got unrealistic expectations .building bigger fences sending more sniffer dogs & extra security will not solve the problem .People have been trying to get in illegally for donkeys years .the French are happy to turn a blind eye .& the British government are incompetent
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People are like water they always have a way to flow to where the sea . We can do all these things at great cost but people will still come until the world is more equal and there is less need to move to make a life for yourself and family. I would hope I would do the same for my own family and be brave and try to make a better life for them were I in such an awful position as many are.
 
Rascal said:
And here is a reply from the Doha dimwit*. Who hypocritically is an economic migrant




*trademark owned by Rascal :))
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Not hypocritical at all. I didn't try and break in to the country illegally. I had to first get a job, show I was financially secure, go for health screening, find and pay for accommodation pay for that 12 months up front and my company had to provide private health care so I wasn't a drain on the country.

If I lose my job, I have a week to leave. There are no benefits on offer to me either.
 
SWP's back said:
Not hypocritical at all. I didn't try and break in to the country illegally. I had to first get a job, show I was financially secure, go for health screening, find and pay for accommodation pay for that 12 months up front and my company had to provide private health care so I wasn't a drain on the country.

If I lose my job, I have a week to leave. There are no benefits on offer to me either.
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So you would be in favour for those in Calais to do the same to get in the UK?
 
Anybody ever read the Death Ship by B. Traven? Not completely relevant in this situation. But still a damn good read.
 
How on Earth will nations become more equal if the working populations of the less developed countries keep flocking to the more developed countries?

I get that it's a lot easier to say than do, but if they're fleeing persecution and leaving behind wives and children, the persecution situation isn't going to improve. The people at Calais are the ones who need to be fighting for their country to improve.
 
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