The Conservative Party

If these Liberals stop pushing for these liberties, do we see the end of capitalist exploitation? Or are you blaming capitalist exploitation on those who have been exploited, that's a bit like blaming a girl if she is raped.

Social norms change over time, it was a social norm in Ancient Rome to take male and female lovers, it was a social norm under feudalism for the Lord of the manor to treat his subjects as minions. 50 years ago it was a social norm that women stayed at home and men went to work, it is a social norm now that all people are expected to work (unless you are rich)

Biological norms, Liberals like to push their agenda on inclusivity of otherwise no specific norms on to others whose idea's of norms differ to there own, how that makes them ripe for capitalist exploitation is debatable i suppose but is it provable because capitalist exploitation would occur anyway, as that is how capitalism works, it is exploitative by nature and i see it more as a social issue than an economic issue, but its an interesting point you make and one well worth consideration.

Thankfully as a Socialist I am of the mind to push for the collective rights rather than individual freedoms, because if one person is free at the expanse of all the others then it is not freedom, it is libertarian selfishness.
I wasn't blaming, I was pointing out that pushing individualism is distinctly liberal and Conservatives, whilst enjoying free market thinking, only really jumped on the individualist bandwagon because it creates commercial opportunities. If Liberals balanced individual freedoms with responsibility and accountability for those freedoms we may have ended up with a more productive, inclusive society, but it's been allowed to run unabated and we are where we are. That's not blaming, just a commentary on where it's gone.

As you say, it's a social norm everyone goes to work now because capitalism has monetised women's rights for the worse, not the better. Same with a raft of other good ideas that weren't given the proper checks and balances to preserve traditional structures that were there to protect people, protect society and communities and stop the situation we're in from happening. Yes, capitalism has exploited those barriers being torn down but in reality the barriers should have been carefully re-arranged with more forethought, not torn down. Tearing down only leads to more persecution in so many cases.

In the same way women's rights have been exploited, we have removed basic biological certainty through social constructs and that creates uncertainty, polarisation which again is exploitative. We have private clinics transitioning children at far too young an age and profiteering from it, and political commentators from both sides making a killing from being on either side of such a debate. Again, the only winner is the one making money off both sides. Another unchecked, poorly thought out though if carefully considered, reasonable progression in society to be more tolerant. What we have now is entirely different.

It's an ever increasingly selfish society, all about hustle, individualism and bettering oneself at the expense of pretty much all else. If even I can come to the table and advocate that society would be better with collective restraints then something is tangibly amiss with the way we're developing.

There's a lot of money to be made, but the tensions, disparities and polarisations are only going to get worse, not better, as more and more people get fucked by the direction we're heading unchecked.
 
Finally look like reverting to what they should be doing. Conservatism.
 

Social norms as determined by collective attitudes to biological sex are still social norms.

The spartans killed any male child that didn't conform to the physical standards required for war, female children were not subject to this. To be a man in Sparta, was to be a warrior.

In other Greek city states, same sex relations were actively encouraged to form strong bonds and increase unit morale.

Third gender/gender non-conforming people have existed throughout history there are many examples in antiquity and outside of western culture. The 750 genders identified by regulars on identity politics tumblr and queerstremists on twitter do not represent the bulk of the people who have similar gender nonconforming identity and expressions.
 

I'll just leave this here for the working class Tories to read.
That's a very good article with some astute contributions by John Milbank.

Rand, of course, is just one of many thinkers who either believe that we are simply not capable of being altruistic, or that it might actually be a good idea to be selfish.

For example, the Roman playwright Plautus once stated that ‘man is a wolf to man’, a view echoed by the ancient Chinese philosopher Hsun Tzu, who argued that human beings are basically evil and immoral. Their claims were eventually taken up and developed by the 17th century English philosopher Thomas Hobbes, who wrote of ‘the war of every man against every man’. Freud is another instance of this line of thought, with his theory that that the id has to be kept in check by the superego.

Much economic policy-making from this perspective is based on the model of homo economicus - the view that humans are narrowly individualistic, rational but self-interested creatures. Although associated in economics with Adam Smith, in a work which has not attracted quite so much attention as The Wealth of Nations, he actually stated: 'To restrain our selfish, and to indulge our benevolent affections, constitutes the perfection of human nature; and can alone produce among mankind that harmony of sentiments and passions in which consists in their whole grace and harmony.' A pity that Javid doesn't seem to have read it.

More recently, over the pond, many Americans cite Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged (rather than The Fountainhead) as the book which had influenced them the most after the Bible. Published in 1957, this 1400 page saga was printed in a run of 24 million copies, and even today it sells several hundred thousand copies a year. President Ronald Reagan was an admirer of it, as was Alan Greenspan, the economist and former head of the Federal Reserve, which controls the American economy. A more recent enthusiast was Paul Ryan (as the article mentions), who was the candidate for the American vice-presidency in 2012. Ryan’s economic and social programme - it should be recalled - consisted of reducing taxes for the rich, whilst at the same time also cutting subsidies for the poor.

Then, of course, there is Thatcher's famous statement about there being no such thing as society to add to the mix.

Interestingly, Rand’s philosophy is not merely that we are all basically selfish; in fact, she thought that we are not selfish enough.

In other words, a lot of people seem to take it for granted that all of our deeds, words and thoughts are motivated by selfishness. But how reasonable is it to believe this?

Well firstly, this is not true when it comes to the animal kingdom. For example, the primatologist Frans de Waal cites the example of a female chimpanzee called Washoe who, upon hearing cries of distress from a female friend, raced across two electric wires to reach her companion, who was struggling desperately in a moat. Wading in the slippery mud at the edge, Washoe managed to grasp her friend’s outstretched hand and pull her to dry land.This is no minor feat, for chimpanzees do not know how to swim and are overcome with panic as soon as water reaches their knees. Fear of water can therefore only be overcome by a powerful motivation, something more than a self-interested calculation like ‘…if I help her now, she’ll help me later.’

Meanwhile, researchers into the behaviour of 2,000 elephants over the course of 35 years noted over 250 examples of empathic reaction to a companion’s distress, including being willing to face danger together, protecting others, comforting them, helping them move, taking care of the children of other mothers, or extracting foreign objects from a companion’s body.

In some exceptional cases, helping behaviour directed towards animals of different species has been observed. One famous example happened in New Zealand, when four swimmers suddenly found themselves surrounded by a band of dolphins who were swimming around them in ever tighter circles, like a sheepdog herding sheep. When one of the swimmers tried to break away, two dolphins forced him to rejoin the group. Soon after, one of the swimmers saw a great white shark pass by, and realized that the dolphins had been preventing them from swimming into harm’s way.

The same altruistic tendencies have also been noticed in very young children. Studies have shown that they will spontaneously offer to help an experimenter complete various tasks, such as bringing the experimenter an object that had fallen to the floor, doing so without any prospect of any kind of reward. As one of the researchers noted, ‘The results were astonishing because these children are so young – they are still wearing nappies and are barely able to use language, but they are already showing helping behaviour.’

When it comes to adults, after 18 years and 31 carefully designed experiments, the psychologist Daniel Batson has concluded that when people engage in helping behaviour, only very scattered support has been found for the claim that they are doing so for some hidden selfish motive.

Research into the immediate aftermath of disasters and emergency situations also reveals that - far from fending for themselves - those people caught up in them make strenuous efforts to help those around them.

I could go on but - if people want still more evidence to falsify the underlying assumptions of Rand's philosophy of egoism, it can be found in Matthieu Ricard's Altruism, a massive, multi-disciplinary study of this prominent tendency in human nature.

Of course, with a government as spectacularly inept as our present one, which seems to be led by a bunch of self-serving grifters, it is no surprise to find that members of it like Javid are still embracing the ideas of such a discredited theorist.

In any case, ethical egoism is a self-contradictory theory. If two people have been bitten by a snake but only one vial of an antidote is available, an ethical egoist would be obliged to act in their own self-interest by taking the antidote. But if their companion asks for advice, an ethical egoist would be committed, according to their own theory, to telling that companion that they should try to get the antidote first.
 
Social norms as determined by collective attitudes to biological sex are still social norms.

The spartans killed any male child that didn't conform to the physical standards required for war, female children were not subject to this. To be a man in Sparta, was to be a warrior.

In other Greek city states, same sex relations were actively encouraged to form strong bonds and increase unit morale.

Third gender/gender non-conforming people have existed throughout history there are many examples in antiquity and outside of western culture. The 750 genders identified by regulars on identity politics tumblr and queerstremists on twitter do not represent the bulk of the people who have similar gender nonconforming identity and expressions.
The Spartans and Greek city states are social norms, they bear no relation to biological basics.

As you state, there have been exceptions in historical societies, however our societal norms relating to sexual identification have for the overwhelming majority been based on our biological facts. Now, they are not, indisputably so. So we have moved away from biological norms as it no longer exceptions, it is the norm and part of the foundation of our society. That's not a comment against its validity, it's simply recognising that our society has now socially constructed above what it biologically means to be a human of a particular sex. So it is different from simply moving away from a social norm, it is moving away from the fundamentals of what we physically are. So it's different and so I listed it separately and did so only in the context of making the point that it is a liberal persuasion to fight for the right to do that. Conservatives jump on the bandwagon when they can make money from same sex marriages and transition procedures on children in private clinics, completely unfettered, without forethought or accountability for any consequences.
 
Social norms as determined by collective attitudes to biological sex are still social norms.

The spartans killed any male child that didn't conform to the physical standards required for war, female children were not subject to this. To be a man in Sparta, was to be a warrior.

In other Greek city states, same sex relations were actively encouraged to form strong bonds and increase unit morale.

Third gender/gender non-conforming people have existed throughout history there are many examples in antiquity and outside of western culture. The 750 genders identified by regulars on identity politics tumblr and queerstremists on twitter do not represent the bulk of the people who have similar gender nonconforming identity and expressions.

Wouldn't this be wonderful to explore without witnessing the no debate wholesale assault on women's rights, without the remorseless destruction of what it is to be female, without the vicious, relentless de-platforming and demonisation of those who dissent, without the mind-boggling mangling of language to obliterate the reality of female biology and without the barely concealed misogyny, greed and exploitation of the vulnerable.

In all my years I've never seen a campaign as insidious and dishonest as that pursued by the trans lobby.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.