The Conservative Party

[jaseirai]

Here's some facts for you.

During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove gave strong indications that VAT would be cut on domestic fuel if the UK voted to leave the EU.
Writing in the Sun they promised that "fuel bills will be lower for everyone", saying "when we Vote Leave, we will be able to scrap this unfair and damaging tax".
In an interview with Sky News in May 2016 Michael Gove said: "I think when we take back control of the millions we give to the European Union, this [scrapping VAT on energy bills] has to be the top priority."

We left the EU two years ago. You'd have thought Michael Gove's top priority would have been implemented by now.

NI is why that's not happening

 

[metalblue]

Here's some facts for you.

During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove gave strong indications that VAT would be cut on domestic fuel if the UK voted to leave the EU.
Writing in the Sun they promised that "fuel bills will be lower for everyone", saying "when we Vote Leave, we will be able to scrap this unfair and damaging tax".
In an interview with Sky News in May 2016 Michael Gove said: "I think when we take back control of the millions we give to the European Union, this [scrapping VAT on energy bills] has to be the top priority."

We left the EU two years ago. You'd have thought Boris Johnson's promise and Michael Gove's top priority would have been implemented by now.

Given Johnson said (according to your quotes) “we will be able to scrap this unfair and damaging tax” and that we are now able to do so I’m not entirely sure of the fact you are disputing. Gove saying “I think” isn’t a fact - it’s an opinion.

Any road no one could foresee the current cost of energy crisis unfolding - and unless they are sitting there right now busily counting how much cash they made from buying Nat Gas futures back then (or whatever product they wanted to get long exposure to gas prices etc at) then they would be lying through their back teeth if they said they could. VAT on energy is symbolic rather than punitive here in the UK and given the current state of things it’s absolutely right for the government to be focusing on targeted help for those that need it, rather than helping everyone including those who don’t. That’s not to say they can’t do more.

 

[west didsblue]

NI is why that's not happening

Probably.

That would be down to the deal that Theresa May stated that "no UK prime minister could ever agree to a border in the Irish Sea" and Boris Johnson said that "There will be no border down the Irish Sea - over my dead body".

Taking back control going well isn't it.

 

[west didsblue]

Given Johnson said (according to your quotes) “we will be able to scrap this unfair and damaging tax” and that we are now able to do so I’m not entirely sure of the fact you are disputing. Gove saying “I think” isn’t a fact - it’s an opinion.

Any road no one could foresee the current cost of energy crisis unfolding - and unless they are sitting there right now busily counting how much cash they made from buying Nat Gas futures back then (or whatever product they wanted to get long exposure to gas prices etc at) then they would be lying through their back teeth if they said they could. VAT on energy is symbolic rather than punitive here in the UK and given the current state of things it’s absolutely right for the government to be focusing on targeted help for those that need it, rather than helping everyone including those who don’t. That’s not to say they can’t do more.

We left the EU two years ago and it's a fact that May, Johnson and Gove made those comments.

Here's a few more:
"Fuel bills will be lower for everyone."

"The NHS will be stronger, class sizes smaller, and taxes lower."

"We’ll have more money to spend on our priorities, wages will be higher and fuel bills will be lower.

"Leaving the EU is a great opportunity for us to take back control of our borders, our economy and our democracy."

It's all a bit of a sick joke isn't it. The pandemic hasn't helped but if they hadn't wasted tens of billions of pounds of our money on mismanaging the pandemic response and not doing even basic checks when dishing out loans to fraudulent companies that have run off with the money, there might have been a bit more scope to help people with their fuel bills.

 

[inbetween]

We left the EU two years ago and it's a fact that May, Johnson and Gove made those comments.

Here's a few more:
"Fuel bills will be lower for everyone."

"The NHS will be stronger, class sizes smaller, and taxes lower."

"We’ll have more money to spend on our priorities, wages will be higher and fuel bills will be lower.

"Leaving the EU is a great opportunity for us to take back control of our borders, our economy and our democracy."

It's all a bit of a sick joke isn't it. The pandemic hasn't helped but if they hadn't wasted tens of billions of pounds of our money on mismanaging the pandemic response and not doing even basic checks when dishing out loans to fraudulent companies that have run off with the money, there might have been a bit more scope to help people with their fuel bills.

Let's be fair, we've had the greatest economic shock in history within that time period due to COVID so only a stupid person would believe that things wouldn't have to change drastically from what came before.

Do people really think that had we been in the EU then we'd be doing any better? Polish inflation is currently 8%, Germany it's 5% and Spain it's 6%. The world's energy market is not run by the EU, nor do we even get most of our energy from any country in the EU, it's irrelevant.

Yeah the leave lot probably told a few porkies but very few people still have their watches set to June 2016, are we still not able to get over it? Just a reminder, we left 2 years ago.

 

[west didsblue]

Let's be fair, we've had the greatest economic shock in history within that time period due to COVID so only a stupid person would believe that things wouldn't have to change drastically from what came before.

Do people really think that had we been in the EU then we'd be doing any better? Polish inflation is currently 8%, Germany it's 5% and Spain it's 6%. The world's energy market is not run by the EU, nor do we even get most of our energy from any country in the EU, it's irrelevant.

Yeah the leave lot probably told a few porkies but very few people still have their watches set to June 2016, are we still not able to get over it? Just a reminder, we left 2 years ago.

With this government in charge we would be mismanaging the pandemic response and the energy crisis irrespective of our EU status. As the main focus of this discussion is the energy crisis, are there any other EU countries that are allowing fuel prices to rise by as much as we are? The answer is a resounding no.

Saying the leave lot probably told a few porkies is equivalent to saying Donald Trump might have told a few lies.

 

[inbetween]

With this government in charge we would be mismanaging the pandemic response and the energy crisis irrespective of our EU status. As the main focus of this discussion is the energy crisis, are there any other EU countries that are allowing fuel prices to rise by as much as we are? The answer is a resounding no.

Saying the leave lot probably told a few porkies is equivalent to saying Donald Trump might have told a few lies.

Rising energy prices are mostly due to price increases of wholesale energy brought about by COVID so there's nothing we can really do about it. There's the suggestion to remove VAT but that would save a whole 5% on any increase which isn't going to make any difference.

There is a good argument to reduce green taxes (as Germany has done) or an example might be to reduce taxes elsewhere such as fuel duty to help people. I don't expect those to be suggested though because politically how can you choose to reduce taxes on fossil fuels?

 

[meltonblue]

Let's be fair, we've had the greatest economic shock in history within that time period due to COVID so only a stupid person would believe that things wouldn't have to change drastically from what came before.

Do people really think that had we been in the EU then we'd be doing any better? Polish inflation is currently 8%, Germany it's 5% and Spain it's 6%. The world's energy market is not run by the EU, nor do we even get most of our energy from any country in the EU, it's irrelevant.

Yeah the leave lot probably told a few porkies but very few people still have their watches set to June 2016, are we still not able to get over it? Just a reminder, we left 2 years ago.

To be fair, why would anyone get over something where the true costs of it are only just starting to be felt (not talking about energy there)

 

[west didsblue]

Rising energy prices are mostly due to price increases of wholesale energy brought about by COVID so there's nothing we can really do about it. There's the suggestion to remove VAT but that would save a whole 5% on any increase which isn't going to make any difference.

There is a good argument to reduce green taxes (as Germany has done) or an example might be to reduce taxes elsewhere such as fuel duty to help people. I don't expect those to be suggested though because politically how can you choose to reduce taxes on fossil fuels?

We are in the position where the government is limited in what it can do to help energy consumers in this country for many reasons in addition to just the economic constraints brought about by the pandemic. Fairly high on the list was the government's decision to allow the energy companies to shut down nearly all the strategic gas reserve over the last 10 years.


Half of our gas is imported which is at the mercy of the wholesale market price. The government has consciously decided to do nothing about the other half of our gas which is produced in the North Sea and is allowing the energy companies to make massive profits rather than implementing a windfall tax which could be used to subsidise consumers.

Also they have been reluctant to allow much exploitation of shale gas which could have made us less dependent on imports, however even if they had, the precedent of allowing the North Sea gas producers to make massive profits would presumably been applied to the shale gas producers.

The bottom line is that we are facing rises of 50-100% in our energy costs as a result of our government getting us into a bad position to start with and dogmatically refusing to exercise what discretion it does have to alleviate things slightly, other than a few headline items which are window dressing in the scheme of things.

On the plus side my Shell and BP shares are doing well ;-)

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Rising energy prices are mostly due to price increases of wholesale energy brought about by COVID so there's nothing we can really do about it. There's the suggestion to remove VAT but that would save a whole 5% on any increase which isn't going to make any difference.

There is a good argument to reduce green taxes (as Germany has done) or an example might be to reduce taxes elsewhere such as fuel duty to help people. I don't expect those to be suggested though because politically how can you choose to reduce taxes on fossil fuels?

They’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. On one side they still want all the extra taxes that the increases provide and on the other they don’t want to claw money back from the energy providers who are making record profits.

So, let’s go with the easier more neutral option of just fucking off the majority of the UK public and letting them suffer/worry some more.