The Conservative Party

inbetween said:
To consider the flipside of this, I'm not a parent (yet) but the one thing I see in a lot of our friends is that parents don't have the luxury of time. Some people can be shite parents but some aren't and it genuinely sometimes isn't their fault. Either way teachers shouldn't be made responsible for cleaning up that mess.

The loss of time is probably the biggest negative change that has happened to families over the last 30 years. It is now financially impossible for example for a wife or partner to stay at home and look after the kids. Both parents have to work full time and neglect probably creeps in easily such as going for convenience foods and perhaps not being able to give kids the time they need.

Reform is desperately needed here in terms of policies like childcare because some think that childcare and its associated costs are a problem for poor people but that isn't true at all. I work at a company that pays decent money and my mate gave up working Fridays because the childcare costs outweighed his wage. Imagine the lost productivity hours over the whole country if everyone did the same.

These are the kind of conversations that should be happening in politics so that things can be improved away from party lines but unfortunately sensibility went out of the window many years ago.
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Superb post. Agree with all that.
 
Given some of today's discussion on here, If you want a single example of why this lot are utterly unfit to run a fucking bacon counter let alone a country you need look no further than the Sure Start Programme. Any government that allows something that was having the impact it was having on children's outcomes to just wither on the vine is simply not interested in doing anything of value for it's population.
 
bluenova said:
The problem with poor parenting is that it's a lot more difficult to fix.

It reminds me of the gun/mental health argument in the US. You get lots of gun advocates saying it's a mental health issue, not a gun problem. My reply would always be, "ok, let's fix mental health. Where do we start?" Clearly it's many degrees more complex than gun legislation, and it's the same with parenting. The right in this country will tell us it's all about personal responsibility, but that doesn't solve the problem.

Dental appointments for young kids are all about telling them how to brush, and spotting if they're missing areas, or not doing it enough. They talk to the parents and it's a 'contract' to come back in 6 months with better teeth.

I'd be happy with the Labour proposal to teach/brush kids teeth in schools. It's obviously 'nanny state'. but it helps save money on NHS/Dental costs. Kids will tell/guilt their parents, and hopefully it becomes a habit, and when those kids grow up they're better placed to teach their kids.
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It depends really but shouldn't teachers be focusing on teaching classes? I'm sure that teachers have enough on their plate and they certainly aren't paid enough to have to now become parents themselves.

If parents can't teach their kids to do something so simple then what chance have they got in life regardless of the interventions by the education system or NHS? I don't think that this is something you can attribute to the views of the left or right of politics, it's just the basics of bringing up a child.

For me we need to meet in the middle and instead of taking over the job of parenting the state should be doing everything it can to help parents to be good parents. Nobody is going to be perfect but that should be recognised with what will help and not by removing responsibility.
 
bluenova said:
The right in this country will tell us it's all about personal responsibility, but that doesn't solve the problem.
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Absolutely. There's this idea that social problems are caused by laziness or poor moral standards, as if these things are in terminal decline. But the reality is that there are just as many lazy people now as there were 60 years ago. There are just as many shit parents as there were 60 years ago (although to be fair, more having to do it by themselves). The difference is the environment they're in. You've got a country that is impossible to live in without having two parents working. You've got more and more people having to move far away from their family, so they can't rely so much on grandparents for help. You've got supermarkets full of ultra processed food that is quicker and easier to cook, and lasts longer in your cupboard/freezer. And now you're not getting your kids' regular dental checkup. Is it any wonder there are so many fat kids with shit teeth? I remember watching an early episode of QI where they pointed out that British kids had the healthiest teeth in the world. I wonder how far we've fallen since that was recorded.

bluenova said:
I'd be happy with the Labour proposal to teach/brush kids teeth in schools. It's obviously 'nanny state'. but it helps save money on NHS/Dental costs. Kids will tell/guilt their parents, and hopefully it becomes a habit, and when those kids grow up they're better placed to teach their kids.
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Is it nanny state? I went to primary school in the late 80s, early 90s, and we definitely had a dentist come in to teach us how to properly brush our teeth. Is that really a controversial idea? Is it any different from the firefighters coming in to talk about fire safety, or the police doing a class on road safety? If it's the actual teachers having to teach it, that's another story. I reckon they've probably got enough on their plates with the maths, English, science, etc, without expecting them to solve all of society's problems on top of that, especially those caused by lack of funding in other areas.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
Absolutely. There's this idea that social problems are caused by laziness or poor moral standards, as if these things are in terminal decline. But the reality is that there are just as many lazy people now as there were 60 years ago. There are just as many shit parents as there were 60 years ago (although to be fair, more having to do it by themselves). The difference is the environment they're in. You've got a country that is impossible to live in without having two parents working. You've got more and more people having to move far away from their family, so they can't rely so much on grandparents for help. You've got supermarkets full of ultra processed food that is quicker and easier to cook, and lasts longer in your cupboard/freezer. And now you're not getting your kids' regular dental checkup. Is it any wonder there are so many fat kids with shit teeth? I remember watching an early episode of QI where they pointed out that British kids had the healthiest teeth in the world. I wonder how far we've fallen since that was recorded.


Is it nanny state? I went to primary school in the late 80s, early 90s, and we definitely had a dentist come in to teach us how to properly brush our teeth. Is that really a controversial idea? Is it any different from the firefighters coming in to talk about fire safety, or the police doing a class on road safety? If it's the actual teachers having to teach it, that's another story. I reckon they've probably got enough on their plates with the maths, English, science, etc, without expecting them to solve all of society's problems on top of that, especially those caused by lack of funding in other areas.
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I remember the nit nurse who used to rip your hair out with a brutal nit comb :)
 
inbetween said:
It depends really but shouldn't teachers be focusing on teaching classes? I'm sure that teachers have enough on their plate and they certainly aren't paid enough to have to now become parents themselves.

If parents can't teach their kids to do something so simple then what chance have they got in life regardless of the interventions by the education system or NHS? I don't think that this is something you can attribute to the views of the left or right of politics, it's just the basics of bringing up a child.

For me we need to meet in the middle and instead of taking over the job of parenting the state should be doing everything it can to help parents to be good parents. Nobody is going to be perfect but that should be recognised with what will help and not by removing responsibility.
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What I'd attribute to the right is that it's an easy excuse- blaming other people's character absolves them of any responsibility. It doesn't solve any problems though.

As I said, fixing bad parents is a much bigger project that getting kids to brush their teeth at school. As well as having a direct impact on the child's health, it's also the easiest (and probably cheapest) way to get that information into their home, and doing what you want; "helping parents to be good parents". Kids that have been told to do something by their teachers are the best little health warriors you can have.

As for teacher time, I'm all for an education that involves helping kids being healthy, and life skills are just as important as academic ones.
 
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