The Conservative Party

Psychedelic Casual said:
I think this forum (this part of the forum) has much more of a left wing feel to it than right. Not particularly far left wing, but there’s certainly a lot of that doom-and-gloom/“tell everyone their lives are shit” fringe that is a big feature of modern left-wing ideology.
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Where do you get this notion from?

I have seen it said a few times on here now and wonder what you actually mean by it?

Which posters like to tell other's there lives are shit? Do you mean people telling others their own lives are shit, or that there (as in others) lives are shit.

By doom and gloom, do you mean posting this government are fucking useless and killing people?

Genuinely interested in your statement BTW, as it seems to be creeping into normality.
 
dave_blue12 said:
You really don't have to be left wing to object to

The lies Cummings Barnard Castle Affair and press conference
Corruption Jenrick- Desmond Scandal
Cronyism - See above, PPE contracts without tender and non-compliant supplies
Incompetence - Points on PPE supply and Hand shaking cover this
Law breaking- Overruling withdrawal agreement in contravention of international law
Stupidity - Hand Shaking covid patients and bragging about it in a live press conference

Of this Government.

(Feel free to add as I must have missed a few)
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@metalblue

I have deliberately chosen the more obvious examples. It's difficult to argue that there isn't at least the appearance of wrongdoing on points 2 and 3.
 
Postman Pep said:
...and you're far more likely to not see the lies, cronyism, incompetence etc, and suggest people who do are not being objective, if you voted for the cunts.
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Absolutely. I do try to research things before agreeing or disagreeing with them. The trouble with just calling them liars, incompetent, etc without specific examples and analysis is it is impossible to see the objectiveness in the argument being put forward.
 
dave_blue12 said:
Which parts aren't true ?
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All of it and none of it. To further the debate we need to have specific examples as to why you think these allegations are true and then the onus on me is to counter or agree with them.

However the problem with this approach is twofold, firstly you’ll find something that is hard to prove or disprove and secondly you’ll extrapolate that to all Tory MPs (rightly or wrongly). This isn’t “you” as in personally but rather how these debates go
 
metalblue said:
All of it and none of it. To further the debate we need to have specific examples as to why you think these allegations are true and then the onus on me is to counter or agree with them.

However the problem with this approach is twofold, firstly you’ll find something that is hard to prove or disprove and secondly you’ll extrapolate that to all Tory MPs (rightly or wrongly). This isn’t “you” as in personally but rather how these debates go
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I am not about to waste my time posting the numerous examples that are all in the public domain. But I see another poster has listed a few examples for you to explain.

Frankly anyone who doesn't see what this Government is up to has clearly chosen to turn a blind eye. I can only assume the reason being political bias.
 
meltonblue said:
I think a bit of it is also just criticism of whoever’s in charge will always outweigh others, given they’re the ones running the country.

That and this particular government do things in ways that are unpalatable to a fair amount of the traditional conservative base too. The issue for centrists is that neither of the two main parties have been a viable option due to their leadership recently.
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fair points .
 
metalblue said:
Absolutely. I do try to research things before agreeing or disagreeing with them. The trouble with just calling them liars, incompetent, etc without specific examples and analysis is it is impossible to see the objectiveness in the argument being put forward.
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The argument is that they are corrupt, incompetent liars. The counter-argument is that they aren't. I think the burden of proof, with one of the worst per capita Covid rates and Brexit going badly wrong (ok it's only a small apocalypse), is on those who think they are truthful upright and competent.
 
Ha ha ha

Coffey on GMB blames the public's age and obesity on the high COVID death rate rather than the inaction of her government and when called out on it, and morgan repeats her words that she blames us for being too old or too fat, accuses him of being offensive,
Then when called out on her hipocracy fumbles around for 5 mins trying to end the Zoom call.

Absolutely clownshoe
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I think most of the politics threads are like this. Conservative threads full of people who hate the conservatives, Labour thread full of labour critics, BJ thread full of people who hate the PM, Starmer thread full of folk that think he's a ****, Brexit thread full of pissed off remainers and so on. Not sure this is particularly a BM thing or just symptomatic of social media as a whole - political 'debate' tends to just end up as an outpouring of hatred and like minds high-fiving each other in an echo chamber in an attempt to recreate the safe space of their own twitter feeds.
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No shit.

Internet forum attracts comments from people who have strong opinions about the topic in question. How could that be?
 
urban genie said:
Ha ha ha

Coffey on GMB blames the public's age and obesity on the high COVID death rate rather than the inaction of her government and when called out on it, and morgan repeats her words that she blames us for being too old or too fat, accuses him of being offensive,
Then when called out on her hipocracy fumbles around for 5 mins trying to end the Zoom call.

Absolutely clownshoe
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I think if we’re being absolutely honest it’s a combination of things that’s lead to such high numbers.

- the country, no matter who was in government, being incredibly ill prepared and sleep walking for decades when it came to pandemic response

- this government specifically making some big mistakes, even if they were being incorrectly lead regarding lockdown one, by their medical advisors, the care home debacle and closing the borders was poor

- people not sticking to the rules, even now, there’s countless examples of people breaking the rules and being careless

- the population size and how overcrowded England is for a small island, the fact you can get stop off at our 3 biggest metropolitan areas in 2.5 hours by train or 3-4 hours by car, which works out at about 15 million people in these cities, means we’re a perfect country for virus spread. It’s no coincidence Belgium is higher than us too, per capita, being the one country that’s even more crowded
 
Ban-jani said:
I think if we’re being absolutely honest it’s a combination of things that’s lead to such high numbers.

- the country, no matter who was in government, being incredibly ill prepared and sleep walking for decades when it came to pandemic response

- this government specifically making some big mistakes, even if they were being incorrectly lead regarding lockdown one, by their medical advisors, the care home debacle and closing the borders was poor

- people not sticking to the rules, even now, there’s countless examples of people breaking the rules and being careless

- the population size and how overcrowded England is for a small island, the fact you can get stop off at our 3 biggest metropolitan areas in 2.5 hours by train or 3-4 hours by car, which works out at about 15 million people in these cities, means we’re a perfect country for virus spread. It’s no coincidence Belgium is higher than us too, per capita, being the one country that’s even more crowded
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From what list are you referring to?
 
Vic said:
The argument is that they are corrupt, incompetent liars. The counter-argument is that they aren't. I think the burden of proof, with one of the worst per capita Covid rates and Brexit going badly wrong (ok it's only a small apocalypse), is on those who think they are truthful upright and competent.
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Every single Tory MP is corrupt? Clearly that is not the case. That some may be? Possibly so. Find the best example you have (if you want) and let’s debate it. I may well agree with you, I don’t want our MPs to be corrupt no more than you do or anyone else for that matter.

COVID deaths is a hard one. The way we report our deaths is different to other countries but when you look at excess deaths we have not faired well compared to France or Germany (as comparable countries economically wise), but have faired better than the med countries like Italy and Spain. The trouble is it is not obvious why when you look at some of the main pressure points identified early on in the pandemic:

PPE - Certainly in the case of France they started without any PPE stockpile and struggled to get enough so it would be unlikely this is a differentiating factor. Especially when you consider we sourced supplies more effectively.

Too late in locking down? Certainly no evidence to suggest the first lockdown came comparably late to France given the same trajectory. Second one quite possibly so but we were already outrunning France after the first one so that doesn’t appear to be the smoking gun.

People not abiding by rules? Again I think the first lockdown was more or less observed so I don’t think that’s a cause in its own right

There is clear evidence to suggest a correlation between health spend and COVID outcomes. Maybe our population is just more unhealthy than France or Germany. More money into public health? More GPs?

We absolutely need an open and honest - and above all non-political - review of why we suffered more than others.
 
Ban-jani said:
This one, that I continuously post that people ignore- https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

We also went from about 7th to 3rd as soon as the new variant took a hold. The rise, which you can see in the last column, highlights the damage this variant has done.
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Fair enough but I think you are putting slightly greater weight on population density than might actually be the case. The Netherlands is the most densely populated country in Europe.

ourworldindata.org

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Deaths

Explore data on COVID-19 deaths across the world.
ourworldindata.org ourworldindata.org

I agree about the significance of the new variant but that was always a risk of greater mutation with the greater community transmission that comes with less restrictive regulations.
 
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