The Conservative Party

Ban-jani said:
They weren’t cave men in 1969 though, they knew full well from the Spanish Flu what was needed.
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HK flu CFR was less than half that of Covid so guidelines for dealing with it were nowhere near as stringent. Spanish flu in 1918 was much more deadly, probably twice as lethal as Covid.
 
metalblue said:
This is fun

No. I agree with the basic premise that government actions have saved lives

I do agree that more lives could probably have been saved - how and how many I can’t possibly say.

So my turn. Do you agree with my basic premise that government actions have saved lives?
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Can I play?

There is a room with 100 people. A person walks in with a gun and only kills 10. You have to agree with the basic premise that their actions saved lives.

A drunk driver swerves to avoid hitting a group of school children on a pedestrian crossing, they smash into an oncoming car killing all the occupants...You have to agree with the basic premise that their actions saved lives.

Harold Shipman was a Doctor, you have to agree with the basic premise that his actions saved lives.

Actually it isn't fun...it's absurd.
 
Looking at the Meldrew cap.... I'm 44, and rather balding. I liked my grade zero hair. Anything longer than that is going to look absurd. I caught COVID in the Autumn. And guess what. My bald pate is now scaly, apparently a not unexpected symptom of the illness. The magic T-Gel has no effect on my scalp anymore.

Wearing a bobble in winter is one thing. But what the hell am I going to do this summer?

Oooh look it's Boris on TV again. Been all of five minutes since he last flashed up on my TV screen, making another deeply insensitive display of his conspicuously lush locks. Positively rubbing my nose in it. He can't go soon enough.
 
west didsblue said:
HK flu CFR was less than half that of Covid so guidelines for dealing with it were nowhere near as stringent. Spanish flu in 1918 was much more deadly, probably twice as lethal as Covid.
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Exactly, a lesser pandemic in terms of mortality still killed 80,000 people, in the UK, when travel and how connected people are was much less.

The guidelines were clearly wrong and it’s not unreasonable to say that Harold Wilson was also culpable for thousands of deaths.
 
You only have to ask if the government are now trying to confirm what they should have done nearly a year ago. Track and trace, closing air bridges, locking down areas for months on end, closing schools, extending furlough, etc, etc.

At least now the opposition is forcing them into a decision, they are now accountable.
 
Ban-jani said:
Exactly, a lesser pandemic in terms of mortality still killed 80,000 people, in the UK, when travel and how connected people are was much less.

The guidelines were clearly wrong and it’s not unreasonable to say that Harold Wilson was also culpable for thousands of deaths.
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Available treatments weren’t as good and I’ve never read anything to suggest that Wilson did not follow clear advice. Maybe you’ve seen otherwise. If so, can you post a link.
 
Ban-jani said:
Exactly, a lesser pandemic in terms of mortality still killed 80,000 people, in the UK, when travel and how connected people are was much less.

The guidelines were clearly wrong and it’s not unreasonable to say that Harold Wilson was also culpable for thousands of deaths.
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The Future’s Blue! said:
You only have to ask if the government are now trying to confirm what they should have done nearly a year ago. Track and trace, closing air bridges, locking down areas for months on end, closing schools, extending furlough, etc, etc.

At least now the opposition is forcing them into a decision, they are now accountable.
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Right or wrong they've made a nice little earner along the way.
 
remember arthur mann said:
Right or wrong they've made a nice little earner along the way.
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It’s hard to think that certain people would use this pandemic as an opportunity but the evidence is overwhelming. The worst part is that we know it will be even worse when certain members sail off into the sun on the back of this tragedy.
 
west didsblue said:
Available treatments weren’t as good and I’ve never read anything to suggest that Wilson did not follow clear advice. Maybe you’ve seen otherwise. If so, can you post a link.
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But then you don’t care on how Johnson was advised. Vallance was being quoted in early March in the papers saying how herd immunity was such a good option. Johnson only listened to him and the others. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....f-defends-uk-measures-criticism-herd-immunity
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
It’s hard to think that certain people would use this pandemic as an opportunity but the evidence is overwhelming. The worst part is that we know it will be even worse when certain members sail off into the sun on the back of this tragedy.
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I wouldn’t believe everything you read.

I know for absolute certain a company that was accused of getting a contract as a back hander in the papers A) didn’t and B) has made a loss from its work so far

Others may have but it’s made me question everything.
 
Ban-jani said:
But then you don’t care on how Johnson was advised. Vallance was being quoted in early March in the papers saying how herd immunity was such a good option. Johnson only listened to him and the others. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....f-defends-uk-measures-criticism-herd-immunity
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Are you not going to include what the politic view was against the medical advice, who wins that battle?

Not sure of your view but it is very simple to understand that we have always took a stance that economy came first, Grandma/Grandad came second.

In real terms, we voted for herd immunity and for people to die.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
Are you not going to include what the politic view was against the medical advice, who wins that battle?

Not sure of your view but it is very simple to understand that we have always took a stance that economy came first, Grandma/Grandad came second.

In real terms, we voted for herd immunity and for people to die.
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My view is the government didn’t know what to do, our pandemic plan was... well practically nonexistent and they were advised on herd immunity being a strategy that could work. It didn’t and won’t work so 2 weeks later they put us in lockdown.

I actually think the biggest killer early was care homes, that’s what really fucked things up and again they panicked.

I happen to think whoever was voted in would have probably bottled it but that’s not to say it lets them off the hook.

There’s a wider point about decades of neglect towards pandemic response... New Labour came closest with a half baked report on influenza but they still didn’t do nearly enough.

This was always a ticking time bomb and we were always inevitably awaiting another global virus that would do this, they always happen, no matter the century.

Eastern countries have this figured out much better, because they are used to it. The fact no government has ever learned from them and put together a proper procedure, in the event of this happening, is annoying beyond belief
 
Ban-jani said:
What about the Spanish Flu or Hong Kong flu pandemics?

The government barely introduced restrictions at all and even the latter killed 80,000 in the late 60’s, City were winning the league with a pitch invasion at St James’s Park whilst it went on!
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80,000? Says who?

This virus is nastier than flu.
 
ROCKET80 said:
Can I play?

There is a room with 100 people. A person walks in with a gun and only kills 10. You have to agree with the basic premise that their actions saved lives.

A drunk driver swerves to avoid hitting a group of school children on a pedestrian crossing, they smash into an oncoming car killing all the occupants...You have to agree with the basic premise that their actions saved lives.

Harold Shipman was a Doctor, you have to agree with the basic premise that his actions saved lives.

Actually it isn't fun...it's absurd.
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If you like.

No I don’t agree with your basic premises. In government terms the top and bottom ones are malfeasance where harm was sort to be done, the middle one is misfeasance where harm was done by wilful action. The charge being laid at the governments door is one of nonfeasance which none of your rather silly examples meet.
 
Summerbuzz said:
They've at times asked for action to be taken sooner. So have members of SAGE, and others. There are Tories who are very critical of Boris' handling in the first year. As stated in this forum, Tory MP's like Danny Finkelstein are on record as saying that it is in his nature to 'over-estimate' and think positively, and also that his political style is to leave a decision until the last possible moment. The criticism is that this is great in many scenarios, but very undesirable when dealing with a situation that requires foresight, and is best contained by pro-active and prompt measures, and a pandemic is the perfect example.

I've backed down on my criticism of him in the last week or so. Last year was a disaster. Constantly giving in to deniers and appeasers, constantly last to act and found to have failed to use advance warnings to prepare, and furthermore being secretive and costing the country by favouring personal contacts for procurement and solutions. Also being unfortunately mealy mouthed and equivocal in delivering important messages.

I think reality has set in for him. In almost every regard, he has nowhere else to go now. There are good people around him who can help, and that's how things will go. I don't expect him to move very much from a moderately firm stance in favour of safety first on most of the issues now facing us.

What really hurts is how uncreative and mindless our overall response has been. In particular with unsafe work spaces. Again, Boris is last on the list for people reknown for their attention to detail, or creative, novel solutions. I don't know Labour would have done better but it's hard to imagine a more blunt series of measures than we have seen. Because they are so blunt, we have a situation where major companies can call people in to work who don't need to be on site. Social distancing and other measures are poorly implemented are routinely dismissed as optional by managers. Meanwhile, vulnerable people without bubbles are trapped. Schoolkids, particularly older girls, are now getting mental health problems.

Blunt and often ineffective measures remain. The lack of flexibility in thinking is demonstrated in the schools debate. It's like the only two options are 'open' or 'shut'. If Boris and others in government and SAGE could escape that inflexible mindset, others closer to the educational establishments could surely arrive at intermediate, novel measures that helped tackle the major problems. Half classes. One day a week. Pupil testing. Safer environments. Whatever.

But we're looking at Boris not even discussing the issue until the data arrives. Therefore, nothing like that can be discussed. He'll just give the binary thumbs up or thumbs down, and everyone will scramble to implement. We're wasting time and opportunities to deal with this more effectively and smarter because of this way of working.l

Part of the problem is this constant political noise. Let's just say, you won't know what could have been achieved constructively, if the attention is on firefighting, problems coming from chopping and changing and failing to address long standing issues conclusively. They say this is a thing, where people in start to lose the ability to imagine another timeline. Unfortunately, even those close to Boris know this is uncomfortably close to his preferred political style. 'We're all in Boris's world now', one advisor was quoted as saying excitedly, at the start of the year.

That is not a good thing. We need freedom from fear and constant barages of dramatic developments. They are required so that society's inate capabilities for creativity, hope and mutual appreciation and care can flourish. That side of things will play a large part in determining clinical outcomes for COVID sufferers and others with regard to the mental health of our citizens during and after lockdown.
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good post that.
 
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