The General Election Thread

[ballbag]

How do we get from the Election to Robots?

Haha I was just wondering that, but for me its been the most enjoyable part of the thread. I'm waiting for a Battlestar Galactica type stand off between humans and robots after AI systems demand the vote, with the robots claiming everywhere in the solar system except the moon as their own because they were there first. Leaving us humans without a place to colonise. The Robots win. Voting becomes obsolete.

 

[Len Rum]

Ed Balls doing a great job for the Tories today. Refusing to rule out pulling more hard workers into paying higher tax and letting this trend continue.

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Actually he didn't refuse to rule it out.
Both Con and Lab are agreed to raise the 40p threshold in line with inflation until 2018.
Thereafter the Tories have made a mañana ( I.e. worthless) promise that they'll raise it over and above predicted inflation rises to £50k without saying how they will fund it ( knowing full well that by 2018 so much will have changed then if necessary they can default on their promise without too much fuss).
Balls has said that he could only follow the Tories path if the above inflation rise in the threshold can be funded which seems fair enough.
Still why let the truth get in the way of your very impressive graph.

 

[johnnytapia]

How do we get from the Election to Robots?

Ha! Ha! Good question. Regarding your (well-informed) insight into robots, I accept unreservedly they can and will do tasks that we currently think are the realm of Arthur C Clark, but we’ve been down this road before: Tomorrow’s World was always full of apocalyptical snippets about the rise of the automaton and how humanity would be taken over in 10/20/30 years. Granted, we’ve come a long way since the ‘70s and ‘80s but I still think we’re a very long way from 90% and “a few decades”. There are just too many spheres of employment where logic is most definitely NOT always required, or indeed wanted - te surgeon who, when faced with an amazingly complex procedure, defies all his training, and goes with his hunch (and the patient dies!! No, the patient lives - you get my point though - could a robot do this?).

Back to the election - absolutely kills me to say this, but a Tory win is a shoe-in. The economy will trump almost everything and, whilst there are clearly huge lacunae in Cameron's/Osbourne’s figures, it’s the narrative that Labour caused the deficit that’ll see them (the Tories) easily over the line.

 

[Chippy_boy]

A man after my own heart. On another thread you'll see me express similar sentiments in different language. Here's the key thing that I said earlier though:

Complexity in the tax system isn't a failure of people it's a failure to properly utilise technology.

We could create a single program that ran the entire tax system and was able to be hooked up with by certain Government regulated software and we'd do away with a shedload of jobs. The robotics revolution will put 90% of humans out of work within the next few decades anyway so it might just be middle classes are now getting modernised by technology in the same way that the working classes did in the 1980s.

Efficiency comes from embracing technology, not by reducing complexity.

I kind of agree, but why not do both?

Complexity should only exist where there is good reason and something necessarily requires a complex system.

But very often, this is not the case at all. Often complexity is there because of historical reasons and multiple amendments and adjustments. Sometimes it's there to obsfucate true intentions. (For example rail fares are complex so that the train companies can fool passengers and the regulator in order to charge higher fares and maximise their revenues.)

If an opportunity exists to make something more simple and straightforward, why not embrace it?

True.

I mean, it's worth noting exactly WHAT complexity is. Complexity is just the lack of abstraction in a process - everything around us works in very complex ways but we abstract that as background information and focus only on what's in front of us. Having to sit down with a pen and paper and work out the correct fuel/air ratio in your combustion engine every time you wanted to go to the shop is time consuming and somewhat irrelevant from the goal of "buying food".

The car then is a piece of technology that allows us to abstract complexity which results in a simplification.

Going back to the tax system, the problem as presented is that to have a truly fair tax system we would need thousands of differing variables all interlocking and intermingling to produce a decent outcome OR we would use a flat tax to simplify the outcome. We're trading so called "fairness" for simplicity, treating them as sliding scales which the tax system has to work within.

My point on technology is that you can have a single IT system that works out everybody's extremely complex personal tax systems then spit out a simple figure at the end of it without having to absorb more ongoing human costs. Simplicity is only a goal if it doesn't sacrifice efficiency or fairness. No need for a flat tax, no need to employ useless workers, no need to sacrifice "fairness".

This would also allow the tax system to be much more personalised and, though I'm not a massive fan of the idea personally, tax incentives could be given to encourage certain personal behaviours much more targeted than the current system does.

I see where you're coming from and the idea of technology abstracting away underlying complexity lies at the heart of our everyday experiences such as putting the washing on.

But regards tax, I don't accept that a simple system is necessarily less "fair". It's probably a philosophical argument as to what's fair and what is not, but you could have a single flat rate tax of say 90% and a personal allowance of say £80k if you wanted. Or £30k allowance and 70% rate etc. For whatever your value judgement as to what constitutes "rich" and how much more the rich should pay, you can go a long way with just these two variables.

Personally I think we would ALL do well to spend less time worrying about "fairness" and more about what works best. No point in a super fair system where everyone are equal losers!

 

[Damocles]

Are any of the Mods robots?

I have my suspicions.

Actually, we've designed and ran an automated moderation system on here in the past but never got it moved to the main codebase/forum as we couldn't make it work as we wanted. We also used to have a system that would watch what your thread title was and so some clever stuff to determine if the new thread you were making would sit better in another thread, then point you there.

 

[Scottyboi]

Are any of the Mods robots?

I have my suspicions.

Actually, we've designed and ran an automated moderation system on here in the past but never got it moved to the main codebase/forum as we couldn't make it work as we wanted. We also used to have a system that would watch what your thread title was and so some clever stuff to determine if the new thread you were making would sit better in another thread, then point you there.

Illuminati confirmed right here people, what next terminators?

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Are any of the Mods robots?

I have my suspicions.

Actually, we've designed and ran an automated moderation system on here in the past but never got it moved to the main codebase/forum as we couldn't make it work as we wanted. We also used to have a system that would watch what your thread title was and so some clever stuff to determine if the new thread you were making would sit better in another thread, then point you there.

Illuminati confirmed right here people, what next terminators?

no need, they've already got Ducado.

 

[the blue panther]

Day 3.
Economy/zero hours contracts day. Business owners letter in the Telegraph/UKIP chipping in with a tax giveaway and talking like they have a zero hours contracts policy too. Lib dems have already done whatever was needed to stop exploitation.
Seems to me that it was definitely a Tory day. Mostly debated on a positive note on their territory - the economy - the weather was fine, and I couldn't see much in the way of a positive Tory result - not a majority, but enough to put them back in.
Ed Balls surfaced briefly, but I don't really understand why someone - the modern day version of Mandelson - hasn't had a word... Maybe they figure that, with Ed in the driver's seat, Balls is ok as co driver. But, he looks more the dangerous co pilot every time he opens his mouth - and Labour are heading for a crash, if you'll pardon the analogy.
Sounds like we're still going to be on the economy tomorrow, and if the agenda stays the same, Cameron keeps the keys. Hopefully it'll liven up a little more tomorrow - maybe it'll take a fiery Scots woman to wake up the opposition.

 

[EalingBlue2]

All the right wingers on here have inspired me to register from aus to vote in the election so I can cancel out at least one of you feckers ;-) Last chance probably as well!

 

[Chippy_boy]

All the right wingers on here have inspired me to register from aus to vote in the election so I can cancel out at least one of you feckers ;-) Last chance probably as well!

Democracy is the best system we've got, but it's not perfect by any means.

One of the glaring shortcomings is that someone who doesn't even live here gets to try to fuck us over by voting for the idiot party. Why don't you vote Monster Raving Loony instead? I suppose because unlike Ed, they can't actually do any damage?

 

[EalingBlue2]

All the right wingers on here have inspired me to register from aus to vote in the election so I can cancel out at least one of you feckers ;-) Last chance probably as well!

Democracy is the best system we've got, but it's not perfect by any means.

One of the glaring shortcomings is that someone who doesn't even live here gets to try to fuck us over by voting for the idiot party. Why don't you vote Monster Raving Loony instead? I suppose because unlike Ed, they can't actually do any damage?

I will do it because it's possible one day I may move back to Britain and because I believe that Britains future is a lot better overall as a fairer society. Haven't decided who I will vote for wont be UKIP and exceptionally unlikely it would be Tory but from afar a vote against greed , prejudice and selfishness shall be coming. As a citizen and father of two citizens is it not my duty?

You should be glad that the cellar has lit a candle towards saving Britain from the worst excesses of the right , will be able to drum up a few more votes over here too!

 

[blueonblue]

THERE IS NO LAW THAT MAKES INDIVIDUALS LIABLE FOR INCOME TAX IN THIS COUNTRY !

Got that ?, not even a statute law that has ever gone before parliament, that's why they are referred to as "Contributions", because you agree to them when you fill out and sign a tax return without understanding.

Anyone who disagrees can look it up for themselves, feel free to post what you find.

I always thought it was The Income Tax act of 1842 ??

So did a lot of people.......until they had a quick read through it ;0). Same with the 1952 act, the trick is to look at WHO is liable and for what, the use of the word "Income" within the act(s) is used to describe profits made from landholdings, commercial trade, and investments, when you fill out a tax return and sign it, you "Volunteer" to pay.
The use of common words with more than one meaning is how "Legalese" works, so all acts have an index defining in what context each word is used,

People are tricked into filling out the forms and signing them under threat of penalty, but the right of silence (You have the right to remain silent) is not just verble, it also means in writing, you can invoke that right and refuse to sign anything.

If you want some fun, next time you have to talk with the tax office simple ask them what law makes YOU liable to pay tax on money you earned working (Not income as defined if they try the above acts).............bet you dont get an answer ;0)

 

[DelToro]

THERE IS NO LAW THAT MAKES INDIVIDUALS LIABLE FOR INCOME TAX IN THIS COUNTRY !

Got that ?, not even a statute law that has ever gone before parliament, that's why they are referred to as "Contributions", because you agree to them when you fill out and sign a tax return without understanding.

Anyone who disagrees can look it up for themselves, feel free to post what you find.

I always thought it was The Income Tax act of 1842 ??

So did a lot of people.......until they had a quick read through it ;0). Same with the 1952 act, the trick is to look at WHO is liable and for what, the use of the word "Income" within the act(s) is used to describe profits made from landholdings, commercial trade, and investments, when you fill out a tax return and sign it, you "Volunteer" to pay.
The use of common words with more than one meaning is how "Legalese" works, so all acts have an index defining in what context each word is used,

People are tricked into filling out the forms and signing them under threat of penalty, but the right of silence (You have the right to remain silent) is not just verble, it also means in writing, you can invoke that right and refuse to sign anything.

If you want some fun, next time you have to talk with the tax office simple ask them what law makes YOU liable to pay tax on money you earned working (Not income as defined if they try the above acts).............bet you dont get an answer ;0)

Do you pay income tax on your income?

I am genuinely curious.

 

[Chippy_boy]

All the right wingers on here have inspired me to register from aus to vote in the election so I can cancel out at least one of you feckers ;-) Last chance probably as well!

Democracy is the best system we've got, but it's not perfect by any means.

One of the glaring shortcomings is that someone who doesn't even live here gets to try to fuck us over by voting for the idiot party. Why don't you vote Monster Raving Loony instead? I suppose because unlike Ed, they can't actually do any damage?

I will do it because it's possible one day I may move back to Britain and because I believe that Britains future is a lot better overall as a fairer society. Haven't decided who I will vote for wont be UKIP and exceptionally unlikely it would be Tory but from afar a vote against greed , prejudice and selfishness shall be coming. As a citizen and father of two citizens is it not my duty?

You should be glad that the cellar has lit a candle towards saving Britain from the worst excesses of the right , will be able to drum up a few more votes over here too!

What utter tripe. Everyone on all sides of the political debate want a decent and fair welfare system, good schools, an excellent health service, police, defence etc. We all want that.

The question is how on earth do we pay for it? The tories believe that a healthy, vibrant and growing economy is the only way to achieve this in the long run. That by taxing less you encourage investment, entrepreneurialism and growth and then you actually raise more in tax revenues to pay for things.

Labour believe you don't have to worry about any of that. Just take more money off rich people. Only there aren't enough really rich people to make a difference, so they have to take it off everyone else as well.

Not only is this morally wrong, it's actually counterproductive: The most creative and wealthy in society just bugger off or jump through loop holes so they don't pay it. Businesses do the same, or burdened with taxes struggle to stay afloat, let alone prosper and grow and employ more people.

High taxes are a tax on jobs, on wealth and everyone suffers under your "fairer" system.

Labour policies are doubtless well intentioned, but they just do not work in reality. That's why every single socialist economy in the history of the world ultimately fails or bottoms out at a lowest common denominator of service levels. Here in the UK, they just fuck it up for 5 or 10 years before getting kicked out again. Then the tories come back in, and spend 5 or 10 years fixing it - which inevitably involves pain - so the public conned by the illusion of it being better under Labour, kick them out again and we go around the loop. Tories fixing it, Labour fucking it up, around and around again.

If we just allow the tories to continue for a while we might actually get the growth, wealth and prosperity - and through that the excellent public services - that we ALL want.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Democracy is the best system we've got, but it's not perfect by any means.

One of the glaring shortcomings is that someone who doesn't even live here gets to try to fuck us over by voting for the idiot party. Why don't you vote Monster Raving Loony instead? I suppose because unlike Ed, they can't actually do any damage?

I will do it because it's possible one day I may move back to Britain and because I believe that Britains future is a lot better overall as a fairer society. Haven't decided who I will vote for wont be UKIP and exceptionally unlikely it would be Tory but from afar a vote against greed , prejudice and selfishness shall be coming. As a citizen and father of two citizens is it not my duty?

You should be glad that the cellar has lit a candle towards saving Britain from the worst excesses of the right , will be able to drum up a few more votes over here too!

What utter tripe. Everyone on all sides of the political debate want a decent and fair welfare system, good schools, an excellent health service, police, defence etc. We all want that.

The question is how on earth do we pay for it? The tories believe that a healthy, vibrant and growing economy is the only way to achieve this in the long run. That by taxing less you encourage investment, entrepreneurialism and growth and then you actually raise more in tax revenues to pay for things.

Labour believe you don't have to worry about any of that. Just take more money off rich people. Only there aren't enough really rich people to make a difference, so they have to take it off everyone else as well.

Not only is this morally wrong, it's actually counterproductive: The most creative and wealthy in society just bugger off or jump through loop holes so they don't pay it. Businesses do the same, or burdened with taxes struggle to stay afloat, let alone prosper and grow and employ more people.

High taxes are a tax on jobs, on wealth and everyone suffers under your "fairer" system.

Labour policies are doubtless well intentioned, but they just do not work in reality. That's why every single socialist economy in the history of the world ultimately fails or bottoms out at a lowest common denominator of service levels. Here in the UK, they just fuck it up for 5 or 10 years before getting kicked out again. Then the tories come back in, and spend 5 or 10 years fixing it - which inevitably involves pain - so the public conned by the illusion of it being better under Labour, kick them out again and we go around the loop. Tories fixing it, Labour fucking it up, around and around again.

If we just allow the tories to continue for a while we might actually get the growth, wealth and prosperity - and through that the excellent public services - that we ALL want.

If you take pure capitalism vs pure socialism we live in societies in Europe even in America far closer to socialism than capitalism. Would suggest that capitalism has never really been. The Tories are not that different to labour either they are the same on most matter of import that's part of the frustration in Britain.

If the Tories had their way the industrial revolution would never have happened, we would still have slavery and child labour, the bus would never have existed, women would not have the vote and there would be no education for all. Nearly all the progress in Britain for 300 years has been opposed by the Tories something that will probably never change

 

[Damocles]

Income tax is not voluntary

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/part/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/part/2</a>

 

[blueonblue]

The simple answer is no, I have no "Income as defined" above the personal allowance, however I do pay some on investments I hold plus the usual vat on everything.

The last time I had dealings with the tax man it cost them £25 for my time. Try looking up "Lawful rebellion", where it is not only correct that you withhold tax, but a duty, the whole government is one big con trick to extort money off you, but they have to lie to do it.

 

[EalingBlue2]

The simple answer is no, I have no "Income as defined" above the personal allowance, however I do pay some on investments I hold plus the usual vat on everything.

The last time I had dealings with the tax man it cost them £25 for my time. Try looking up "Lawful rebellion", where it is not only correct that you withhold tax, but a duty, the whole government is one big con trick to extort money off you, but they have to lie to do it.

Do you live in a bunker in Wyoming with a large supply of guns and tinned food by any chance lol?

 

[Moriati]

Any posters casting their vote in the constituency of Witney ?
David Cameron has a direct protest vote challenger in his constituency, and he’s more conservative than conservatives, more liberal than Liberals, more Labour than Labour and Greener than the Green Party, he said. Meet artist, political commentator politician and direct Cameron Challenger Derek (Deek) Jackson and his Land Party.

<a class="postlink" href="https://youtu.be/17pWywanSfc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">https://youtu.be/17pWywanSfc</a>

 

[Lucky13]

This bloke would sort out the Socialist Councils and 60 Socialist MP's using staff on zero hours contracts