The Labour Government

[Blue Maverick]

Am I being Clarkied ... minimum wage of nearly £40000 a year.
Would love to see those inflation figures and unemployment rates.

No because people wouldn’t need top up from the tax payer. You telling me a Tesco couldn’t do it?

 

[Kompany Car]

The government could send a message out by using local firms to deliver local projects.

We seem fixated on using major national firms like Tarmac PLC to be delivering everything on our roads no matter how trivial the job. I recall reading a while back about a mile or so ditch being dug on a country lane verge costing £100k, that didn’t feel like something any builder couldn’t have done who doesn’t have 5 layers of management and shareholders that needed paying on top.

Obviously some things need that whole structure but it’s not a one size fits all.

They do have social value requirements in most contracts, which includes "a local jobs for local people" element plus the use of SMEs. The problem is that in most contracts its about 10% or at most, and very rarely, 20% of the score that tenderers are assessed on, the majority 50% or more is price, the rest made up of programme and quality of the submission.

What they need to do is accept that costs will be higher but have clauses that prevent significant offshoring of design work. Doing so ensures that the money stays within the UK economy.

Similarly mandating a higher percentage of work being performed by UK based SMEs for both design and construction with more favourable commercial terms (e.g. not contracts that have liabilities of £20m when they are only doing 200k of work) would help. For reference TfGM are a nightmare for doing this and not willing to negotiate more reasonable commercial terms.

Whilst I dont advocate trying to have an insular economy, as we do need international trade, which in turn requires some quid pro quo, we dont give our home grown businesses a leg up, unlike every other country. If you believe the Brexit nutcases, it was European legislation stopping us doing this, which 10 years on is clearly not the case.

 

[WRicko]

That does seem weird. Where did you see that?

Was briefly mentioned yesterday when they said how you could get settled status within 20 years ok sky so things like qualifications income etc. To be fair I think that means you can get it with debt at the 20 year point. I get it in a sense but someone without a mortgage renting a rubbish flat is properly more likely to need help from the state than someone with a mortgage on a house and certainly less likely to be progressing and contributing financially at least

 

[metalblue]

Indeed and it probably comes down to how public procurement contracts work centrally. IE, Tarmac PLC gives a 10% discount on anything offered by anybody else so they get selected to do the lot.

It probably works out cheaper when done as a whole versus selecting many different local companies at different prices. The problem then becomes that Tarmac PLC is incentivised to make its profit and keep its shareholders happy and again one way to do this is to pay people basement wages whilst directors and shareholders get the big spoils.

Farmers have this problem too, many people shop at Tesco so a farmer has to sell to Tesco to sell anything at all. The problem is Tesco then have a huge bargaining chip to dictate the price which is always as low as possible. The profit that the farmer should be putting in his pocket is instead given to a Tesco shareholder sat in the Cayman Islands.

Globalism and corporatism came with its benefits but unfortunately it is breaking the economic and social fabric of the country. It is what led directly to things such as Brexit and it will probably even propel Reform into government who are just liars who seek to grab a piece of the pie that they're currently not really getting.

I’d love to see someone in government do that analysis on benefits of using these big nationals for small projects. For sure you need a company with strong balance sheet to build a new road or something of that scale.

Perhaps we need the return of the milk marketing board to ensure farmers get a fair and sustainable gate price for their milk - if all these big nationals are dealing with one entity it significantly reduces their ability to low ball the farmer. This could be extended to meat products etc etc. Of course it will only be great for a couple of years or so until the boards get corrupted by a free holiday on Tesco Island (other islands are available)!!

 

[WRicko]

Low wages

UC ensuring work simply doesn’t pay for many so huge welfare bills

Cost of living crises

Inflation

Scandalous energy bills

We can play the political choice game all day long and it’s in every government, regardless of colour.

Labour are in charge now, nobody else.

So your response to someone pointing out the positive changes labour have brought in is to ? Ignore it ? Post other things they haven’t got round to changing ?

UC is supposed to be better for helping people get into work as they face less of cliff edge with changes of pay or hours resulting in less of fall in benefits.

Also minimum wage has gone up

 

[metalblue]

Was briefly mentioned yesterday when they said how you could get settled status within 20 years ok sky so things like qualifications income etc. To be fair I think that means you can get it with debt at the 20 year point. I get it in a sense but someone without a mortgage renting a rubbish flat is properly more likely to need help from the state than someone with a mortgage on a house and certainly less likely to be progressing and contributing financially at least

Cheers mate. Surely you’d want them to integrate and build a life here etc, being normal means having a mortgage and car loan (other versions of being normal exist!!)

I don’t get that at all but I think some of the messaging has been a bit all over the place from ministers not directly involved in the policy. Maybe they are trying too hard to out perform Reform.

 

[metalblue]

So your response to someone pointing out the positive changes labour have brought in is to ? Ignore it ? Post other things they haven’t got round to changing ?

UC is supposed to be better for helping people get into work as they face less of cliff edge with changes of pay or hours resulting in less of fall in benefits.

Also minimum wage has gone up

UC doesn’t encourage work though. You earn X and pretty much lose X off your UC payment so people are no better off, probably worse off, working. That is a bonkers system that Labour inherited but they are the party in power now and would love to see if reformed to make work pay - and that doesn’t mean making claimants worse off but allowing workers to keep a bit more of their pay.

 

[metalblue]

It’s not just governments, big companies do the same. Ever heard the phrase “no one got fired for choosing IBM”?

Essentially, if people are going to be wrong, they want to be wrong for the right/logical reasons

If I take you to Domino’s and it’s shit, you blame Domino’s. Whereas if I take you to a local pizza place that you’ve never heard of and that’s shit, you’ll likely blame me for recommending it in the first place

Agreed. People say government projects overrun and overspend. So do large scale commercial projects!!!

I have a sneaky suspicion that these big firms come in quoting a decent price before doubling it once you’re too far down the line to tell them to stop work. Probably not accurate but I do wonder how they get it so consistently wrong.

 

[We've got Guardiola]

I’d love to see someone in government do that analysis on benefits of using these big nationals for small projects. For sure you need a company with strong balance sheet to build a new road or something of that scale.

Perhaps we need the return of the milk marketing board to ensure farmers get a fair and sustainable gate price for their milk - if all these big nationals are dealing with one entity it significantly reduces their ability to low ball the farmer. This could be extended to meat products etc etc. Of course it will only be great for a couple of years or so until the boards get corrupted by a free holiday on Tesco Island (other islands are available)!!

Fairer prices just means higher consumer prices though doesn't it in reality?

Consumers don't care about fairer prices for farmers, they want cheaper stuff and in reality that can only be achieved by pressing suppliers/farmers to lower their costs or by controlling other costs such as staff wages. The supermarkets could choose to make less profit and pay farmers fairly, reduce the prices of food and also pay staff properly but that never happens.

It's unfortunately just a consequence of the society that we live in nowadays. We want cheaper stuff and convenience and that has led the big supermarkets to monopolise the food supply. That means now they can name whatever price they want even if it means making obscene profits and not paying people or suppliers properly.

The ultimate benefactors are those who do not supply the food, aren't a customer who buys the food and certainly not the employees who put it on the shelves, it's ridiculous but that's what we're signed up to.

 

[WRicko]

UC doesn’t encourage work though. You earn X and pretty much lose X off your UC payment so people are no better off, probably worse off, working. That is a bonkers system that Labour inherited but they are the party in power now and would love to see if reformed to make work pay - and that doesn’t mean making claimants worse off but allowing workers to keep a bit more of their pay.

That’s the old System UC is supposed to have changed this

 

[cpa]

No because people wouldn’t need top up from the tax payer. You telling me a Tesco couldn’t do it?

it doesnt just effect Tesco's tho does it and where will all these businesses find the extra cost.
People complain about the cost of living now, wait till you see what happens if the minimum wage went up to 20 quid an hour.
Anyway its not going to happen,so pointless discussing it really.

 

[Kompany Car]

Agreed. People say government projects overrun and overspend. So do large scale commercial projects!!!

I have a sneaky suspicion that these big firms come in quoting a decent price before doubling it once you’re too far down the line to tell them to stop work. Probably not accurate but I do wonder how they get it so consistently wrong.

As i mentioned previously, government and public sector procurement is run by idiots. They provide unrealistic budgetary figures often based upon not much more than guesswork. Knock 25% off and then you get businesses going in at zero margin. Once won and in contract, on day one they stick in loads of change and point out all the things that the government procurement missed or forgot about.

Result is that the outturn ends up more expensive than it would have been if they started with a realistic price.

 

[blueinsa]

So your response to someone pointing out the positive changes labour have brought in is to ? Ignore it ? Post other things they haven’t got round to changing ?

UC is supposed to be better for helping people get into work as they face less of cliff edge with changes of pay or hours resulting in less of fall in benefits.

Also minimum wage has gone up

Minimum wage going up happens regardless of who is in power.

Breakfast clubs? What, we will feed your kids because we know you can’t afford to? It’s also not in every school so don’t claim they have done anything of note here.

UC doesn’t encourage work either, it allows folk to not work and more and more are going into it as they no doubt say fuck it, what’s the point in working 40 hours for fuck all when I can get the same for working 20 and have the state prop you up.

Cheap labour is killing us ffs.

 

[hampshireblue]

Minimum wage going up happens regardless of who is in power.

Breakfast clubs? What, we will feed your kids because we know you can’t afford to? It’s also not in every school so don’t claim they have done anything of note here.

UC doesn’t encourage work either, it allows folk to not work and more and more are going into it as they no doubt say fuck it, what’s the point in working 40 hours for fuck all when I can get the same for working 20 and have the state prop you up.

Cheap labour is killing us ffs.

It's down to schools to apply to have a BC. Surely it's a good idea for 2 hard working parents but on a low income to know their kids are getting fed before classes start. Or maybe you'd prefer no help to those that really need it?

If cheap labour is killing us, I assume you want it gone. So do I. But fortunately I can afford to absorb higher prices for stuff,can you?

Imagine being on a fixed income and suddenly it costs £50 to get your windows cleaned instead of £25. Sustainable?

 

[blueinsa]

It's down to schools to apply to have a BC. Surely it's a good idea for 2 hard working parents but on a low income to know their kids are getting fed before classes start. Or maybe you'd prefer no help to those that really need it?

If cheap labour is killing us, I assume you want it gone. So do I. But fortunately I can afford to absorb higher prices for stuff,can you?

Imagine being on a fixed income and suddenly it costs £50 to get your windows cleaned instead of £25. Sustainable?

It appears you’re happy with a low wage, high costs economy?

 

[maxwellblue]

It's down to schools to apply to have a BC. Surely it's a good idea for 2 hard working parents but on a low income to know their kids are getting fed before classes start. Or maybe you'd prefer no help to those that really need it?

If cheap labour is killing us, I assume you want it gone. So do I. But fortunately I can afford to absorb higher prices for stuff,can you?

Imagine being on a fixed income and suddenly it costs £50 to get your windows cleaned instead of £25. Sustainable?

Easy, clean your own windows, doesn't cost anything.

While we all want children to be fed properly it's not up to the state via the tax payer to feed them. If people choose to have kids then they should support them.

Presume you'll want the 2 child cap scrapped.

 

[moomba]

Just out of interest I looker up the minimum wage when it was introduced in 1999, it was £3.60 per hour.

It's now £12.21. The last 2-3 years have seen pretty significant increases.

 

[ballbag]

There's gonna be a lot of unemployed window cleaners claiming UC soon.

 

[cpa]

Just out of interest I looker up the minimum wage when it was introduced in 1999, it was £3.60 per hour.

It's now £12.21. The last 2-3 years have seen pretty significant increases.

if my maths is right it evens out to roughly about 2.8 percent per year even with the big increase in latter years when inflation was near/above double figures.
Not sure what the average inflation is over this time but think this would be slightly higher than that .
edit quick google says 2.5 to 2.8 percent average inflation over the last 25 years

 

[hampshireblue]

It appears you’re happy with a low wage, high costs economy?

No, far from it. But you have to be mindful that high wage in all areas = high price in all areas and in the process of getting there higher inflation = higher state pensions = higher taxes and on it goes.

What we need is a more even economy where low salaries paid by muti nationals don't require an effective state subsidy to help people get by.

Easy, clean your own windows, doesn't cost anything.

While we all want children to be fed properly it's not up to the state via the tax payer to feed them. If people choose to have kids then they should support them.

Presume you'll want the 2 child cap scrapped.

FFS, it was and example of how prices could rise across the whole economy. Tell that to the over 70s(ish), infirm, disabled.

Have you got kids, and if so didn't you get help bringing them up?

I wouldn't scrap the 2 child benefit cap actually apart from multiple births and the present exeption that apply. But the fact is we have an ageing population that will require youngsters to pay NI and taxes to pay for our pensions. So having a declining birth rate is really not a good outcome for the likes of us.