The Labour Government

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

yes absolutely, when the fuck have i ever been in favour of illegal migration ?!

I despise Farage and his merry band of followers for the rhetoric used against migrants and the dehumanization of it all but never would i be in favour of illegal migration or a open border policy.

It would probably be helpful all round if there was clear water between the (separate) discussion of legal or illegal immigrants/ immigration.
Sometimes it suits folk at both ends of the debate to blur the distinction.

 

[BigJoe#1]

It would probably be helpful all round if there was clear water between the (separate) discussion of legal or illegal immigrants/ immigration.
Sometimes it suits folk at both ends of the debate to blur the distinction.

Sadly it benefits some posters to conflate the two separate issues.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Sadly it benefits some posters to conflate the two separate issues.

Yes it does. Unless they live in Dover I doubt anyone would notice any difference if the dinghies stopped tomorrow.

 

[west didsblue]

Yes it does. Unless they live in Dover I doubt anyone would notice any difference if the dinghies stopped tomorrow.

Yep. When they were interviewing people in the street at the time of the Runcorn by election, it was bizarre how many were obsessed with stopping boats that wouldn’t arrive nearer than 200 miles from them.

 

[Hertzblue]

still came 3rd though

Lol. that is desperate blue but true nonetheless.
I think Reform will be able to disrupt in Scotland and turn safe seats for the established parties into marginals as they have done in Hamilton but I don't see them being able to win many seats outright even if as I believe they do form some sort of electoral pact with the Tories for the next election.
The positive is that Farage and Reform will face into real issues that the established parties won't, like the Barnett formula and open the door for discussion and change, that's our democracy at work I guess.

 

[hilts]

You clearly are struggling. I replied to Username Required and your subsequent interventions. I have not needed to read any of your posts except those in this exchange. So no, I didn't reply to any post I hadn't read in full.

Sure sure

 

[Hertzblue]

The French do nothing they don’t have to do.

They process the asylum claims from the people who wish to claim asylum there, as per international law.

The ones that don’t want to claim asylum there, they don’t stop them from leaving.

I’m not sure anyone is advocating the U.K. volunteering to process applications of asylum seekers that have not expressed any interest in staying here.

Mmm, I think in your initial post there is a tacit admission that no Western country wants these migrants and the cost is unaffordable ( glad you have got there)
However when having to face into that about turn you have reverted to hand wringing.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Speak for yourself. Most of them are pure cunts.

Why bother using the thread at all, or just why ignore everyone you dont like agree with?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Why bother using the thread at all, or just why ignore everyone you dont like agree with?

Who said that?

 

[Hertzblue]

The illegal immigrants figures are a complete red herring. The demographic shift many of us see in our communities is due to legal immigration. Compared to that, the apparently large numbers arriving in dinghies are insignificant.
Sadly, no political party has the courage to admit that we desperately need immigration due to our ageing population, and that yes - it will include importing terrorists, criminals and all sorts of other issues.
We have to accept the downsides along with the benefits. I'm in the fortunate position that I can afford to live somewhere where the immigration issue is not problematic, but if you are not so lucky, then frankly you should have worked harder at school.

We have to accept the downsides along with the benefits. I'm in the fortunate position that I can afford to live somewhere where the immigration issue is not problematic, but if you are not so lucky, then frankly you should have worked harder at school.

FFS Cheese, have a bit of empathy, I thought I was bad.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Mmm, I think in your initial post there is a tacit admission that no Western country wants these migrants and the cost is unaffordable ( glad you have got there)
However when having to face into that about turn you have reverted to hand wringing.

You thought incorrectly.

Again.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

FFS Cheese, have a bit of empathy, I thought I was bad.

I'm full of empathy for immigrants. From a selfish perspective I'm not going to have healthcare or my nappies changed in my final years by native workers.
Unless Elon comes up with a sex robot that can cook my meals and help me with the toilet (as well as wank me off) in my old age, immigration is the only answer.

 

[west didsblue]

I'm full of empathy for immigrants. From a selfish perspective I'm not going to have healthcare or my nappies changed in my final years by native workers.
Unless Elon comes up with a sex robot that can cook my meals and help me with the toilet (as well as wank me off) in my old age, immigration is the only answer.

I suspect having to wank you off as part of their job will be a bigger deterrent to them coming in the first place than the Rwanda scheme ever was.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I suspect having to wank you off as part of their job will be a bigger deterrent to them coming in the first place than the Rwanda scheme ever was.

Shhhh. That part is buried very deep in the small print.

 

[Hertzblue]

Joe, is that last bit supposition on your part/rhetorical flourish or is it based on some data? I know there was a Policy Exchange survey about 10 years ago that suggested around 40% of UK Muslims favoured some aspects of Sharia but I dug into that survey and Policy Exchange itself and both struck me as untrustworthy and flawed. Since then the data that is available is very partial and quite confusing. Based on what I've read I would guess and it is a guess that about 10%-15% of UK Muslims would like to see significant elements of Sharia law implemented and that number goes up for some family related aspects like divorce and allowing polygamy. But in terms of actually replacing UK law with Sharia I would guess from what I've read that number is about 5% which is about a third to a half of a percentage point of the total population. Given I can find much bigger percentages of nutters presenting other bigger threats to our way of life across the broader population than that fraction of a percentage point, it doesn't keep me awake at night. In fairness this isn't something I've looked at recently so if that trend is changing I'm open to understanding the data.

I would take no comfort from this data.
Militant Islam does not need broad consent or a majority to impose its will as we have seen in Afghanistan twice, the rise of the Islamic state group etc .
A well connected Bangladeshi friend tells me there are real concerns that Bangladesh may fall to Islamists , the way he seemed to tell it was that the Islamist groups already had their hands on the levers of state and I looked it up and that didn't seem the case so I challenged him on it. He basically said that you wouldn't see it in the numbers, but under the surface in the mosques, madrassas, universities, police etc they were taking hold and that a fanatical , well organised minority could easily bring about change as the majority will remain passive and defer to their religious fervour.
It appears to me from conversations with my muslim friends that even for the more secular among them that Islam is a religion that is difficult for them to walk away from and for sure for the majority of them their first allegiance is to their religion, and the less pious are quick to concede their principles to those closer to pure Islam.
As a country we have demonstrated repeatedly that we able to integrate different cultures without major difficulty but Islam is a problem.

 

[BobKowalski]

Who said that?

Stop it.

 

[BobKowalski]

I would take no comfort from this data.
Militant Islam does not need broad consent or a majority to impose its will as we have seen in Afghanistan twice, the rise of the Islamic state group etc .
A well connected Bangladeshi friend tells me there are real concerns that Bangladesh may fall to Islamists , the way he seemed to tell it was that the Islamist groups already had their hands on the levers of state and I looked it up and that didn't seem the case so I challenged him on it. He basically said that you wouldn't see it in the numbers, but under the surface in the mosques, madrassas, universities, police etc they were taking hold and that a fanatical , well organised minority could easily bring about change as the majority will remain passive and defer to their religious fervour.
It appears to me from conversations with my muslim friends that even for the more secular among them that Islam is a religion that is difficult for them to walk away from and for sure for the majority of them their first allegiance is to their religion, and the less pious are quick to concede their principles to those closer to pure Islam.
As a country we have demonstrated repeatedly that we able to integrate different cultures without major difficulty but Islam is a problem.

I take comfort from the fact that this isn’t Afghanistan or Banglafuckingdesh. I’d worry more about the fundamentalist and nationalist ‘Christianity’ that permeates the US political process.

I use the term ‘Christianity’ in the loosest possible sense given it bears no relation to the teachings of Christ.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I suspect having to wank you off as part of their job will be a bigger deterrent to them coming in the first place than the Rwanda scheme ever was.

Lol

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

I would take no comfort from this data.
Militant Islam does not need broad consent or a majority to impose its will as we have seen in Afghanistan twice, the rise of the Islamic state group etc .
A well connected Bangladeshi friend tells me there are real concerns that Bangladesh may fall to Islamists , the way he seemed to tell it was that the Islamist groups already had their hands on the levers of state and I looked it up and that didn't seem the case so I challenged him on it. He basically said that you wouldn't see it in the numbers, but under the surface in the mosques, madrassas, universities, police etc they were taking hold and that a fanatical , well organised minority could easily bring about change as the majority will remain passive and defer to their religious fervour.
It appears to me from conversations with my muslim friends that even for the more secular among them that Islam is a religion that is difficult for them to walk away from and for sure for the majority of them their first allegiance is to their religion, and the less pious are quick to concede their principles to those closer to pure Islam.
As a country we have demonstrated repeatedly that we able to integrate different cultures without major difficulty but Islam is a problem.

Please confirm that last line, Islam is a problem?

 

[threespires]

I would take no comfort from this data.
Militant Islam does not need broad consent or a majority to impose its will as we have seen in Afghanistan twice, the rise of the Islamic state group etc .
A well connected Bangladeshi friend tells me there are real concerns that Bangladesh may fall to Islamists , the way he seemed to tell it was that the Islamist groups already had their hands on the levers of state and I looked it up and that didn't seem the case so I challenged him on it. He basically said that you wouldn't see it in the numbers, but under the surface in the mosques, madrassas, universities, police etc they were taking hold and that a fanatical , well organised minority could easily bring about change as the majority will remain passive and defer to their religious fervour.
It appears to me from conversations with my muslim friends that even for the more secular among them that Islam is a religion that is difficult for them to walk away from and for sure for the majority of them their first allegiance is to their religion, and the less pious are quick to concede their principles to those closer to pure Islam.
As a country we have demonstrated repeatedly that we able to integrate different cultures without major difficulty but Islam is a problem.

History tells us that a relatively small minority of zealots can indeed sieze power but I think the number in this case is much too small even before you take into account that the examples you cite are not equivalent. But here's my bigger issue...

Let's hypothetically say the entire Muslim population of the UK wants to undermine our values. This is obviously not the case but let's just imagine it. That would be about 6% of the population. Now compare that to the number of people who currently when asked, say they would be happy with an authoritarian leader who could bypass parliament and the rule of law to 'get things done'. Depending on the survey and questions asked, that percentage is between 15 and 20%. In other words 3 times the total of the entire Muslim population of the UK.

We are a liberal democracy, we started moving towards this in the 1200s and achieved it in 1928. In our schools we explicitly teach British Values and there are 5 things that we define as fundamental to Britishness.

1. Democracy
2. The Rule of Law
3. Individual Liberty
4. Mutual Respect
5. Tolerance of different faiths and beliefs

This is literally what we teach our children Britishness means, what we mean when we talk about our 'way of life'.

Yet the data suggests that currently 15-20% of our population reject or do not value the first two of those fundamental aspects of our way of life and would be comfortable with an authoritarian strong man taking control instead. The proportion of the Muslim population who'd be up for creating a theocracy is tiny but this group of people are not. So I don't give a toss about the odd Islamist head banger because they're not a credible threat to our way of life, whereas this group of people possibly are. They are a minority but a big enough one to potentially cause significant damage and take over in the way you describe. So I want to understand them more. Who are they, why do they feel like this, how far would they be prepared to go to undermine our way of life, who do they gravitate towards politically? How cohesive is this group of people? How well organised/funded? To your point, do some of these people already have access to the levers of power in this country?

This should be our national conversation, we're beginning to see what happens in the US when you elect and tolerate someone who's not interested in democracy or the rule of law. Yet we have maybe up to a fifth of our population who seem ok with the idea. Imo that's what we should be talking about.