I'd say that getting to University is definitely not the biggest barrier people face in getting the top jobs in the civil service.
The Labour Government
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I'd say that getting to University is definitely not the biggest barrier people face in getting the top jobs in the civil service.
Apparently, both ethnic minorities, and people with disabilities, are well represented in fast stream recruitment.
Historically that was not always the case, but given past improvements in the application process, and schemes such as the one we're discussing, and no doubt other societal structures, it appears that has already been addressed.
One aside you might appreciate, as you mentioned your daughter may be interested in this kind of work, is that over half the civil service is made up of women. They also make up around just under 50% of senior positions.
However, as recently as recently as the mid-90s, they made up just 15% of senior positions (despite just under half of the civil service being women).
Go back a couple of decades more, and that 15% would likely be a dream scenario for women in the civil service.
There are plenty of reasons for this, but clearly just getting to university wasn't the biggest barrier. Schemes like the intern programme, and various other pressures, recruitment changes, and targeted training, will all have helped.
I personally don't give a fuck about the social background of Civil service interns, what I am concerned about is that despite promises to the contrary the government has allowed the headcount and cost of the Civil service to continue to increase to a 20 year high at 549,000, ( over 30,000 of which are working on policy ) 75% of which are in "management' " roles and paid accordingly , compared to 60% 10 years ago. Who are they managing? Despite the heavy " management " presence, productivity continues to fall and remains below pre - covid levels , yet they insist wfh makes them more productive. Even the fucking Guardian, their house newspaper can see it must end...
Once aboard the gravy train, your chances of being booted off are of course minimal, the civil servants themselves confirmed in a recent survey that performance management is almost non -existent ..
This by any objective measure is a failing organisation, no government of any shade is going to be successful until the civil service becomes fit for purpose. It is failing the British people.
So regardless of their background, I would like interns to be committed to
Being a public servant and understand that is the role of a civil servant , not to regard the role as an opportunity to be an activist of their own political persuasion.
To put the British people first, not the " Global good"
Understand that a full time job is 5 days in the office.
We could loose 30% of them and not know they were gone.
I do support the government in moving positions out of London, that makes sense.
Once aboard the gravy train, your chances of being booted off are of course minimal, the civil servants themselves confirmed in a recent survey that performance management is almost non -existent ..
This by any objective measure is a failing organisation, no government of any shade is going to be successful until the civil service becomes fit for purpose. It is failing the British people.
So regardless of their background, I would like interns to be committed to
Being a public servant and understand that is the role of a civil servant , not to regard the role as an opportunity to be an activist of their own political persuasion.
To put the British people first, not the " Global good"
Understand that a full time job is 5 days in the office.
We could loose 30% of them and not know they were gone.
I do support the government in moving positions out of London, that makes sense.
metalblue
Well-Known Member
I think we might be talking about different things here mate.
I’m referring to working class kids and the barriers they face - you said they were disadvantaged to start with and I’m fully in agreement that in education they suffer a disadvantage for many reasons but once they are at uni it’s much more of a level playing field within their cohort so I’m not so convinced by the argument they are still suffering from disadvantages compared to others, not sufficiently that they should have a free hand in intern selection.
stan bowles
Well-Known Member
That's what pay increments were for on each pay scale. You couldn't progress through them unless you reached pre-agreed performance targets/objectives and your manager approved your progression each year. Of course, it became too time consuming and so increments were granted unless the manager said so (and the process of mapping all this in line with policy and with the employee's involvement in each part of process). Pay increment progression therefore remained virtually automatic (as it always had been) and the incentives were removed.
AFC, to me, was mainly introduced to stop a deluge of equal pay claims from NHS staff with totally different jobs who could prove their role was of equal value to that of others.
I appreciate the argument. I'm not sure though. For example, women were pretty much on a par with men in terms of university by the early 80s, but if you look, for example at the stats I quoted for women in the civil service, they weren't getting into the more senior levels.
I never worked in that area, but I did work in the legal sector for a few years, and had a lot of people who were training to be barristers working for me. They came from a range of backgrounds and talking to them about the challenges they faced, and how lost most of those from a working class background felt when they discovered just how much networking/socialising was a compulsory part of their "training", was really interesting, and more than a little depressing. For them, being academically clever, University was the easy part. Being taken seriously/breaking into the very, very traditional and conservative industry was much harder.
It still is, but without actions like this internship, these sectors would never change, or would do so at an even more snail-like pace.
I completely agree that's what the article says.
So, those that managed to get one of the 200 places, then go on to impress during the internship, and then decide they want to apply for a job, will be 'fast-tracked to the final stages of the Fast Stream selection process'. Given that they've almost certainly had to do the aptitude tests and initial interviews to get a place on the internship scheme, it would be a bit daft to put them back at the start and make them do all that again.
So, some of the 200, will be considered for the 1000 jobs, and will still be competing against the best of the other applicants.
I don't agree that it reduces the pool - other people won't not apply in the first place because maybe a few dozen out of 1000 jobs will go to people on this scheme (it *could* be up to 200, but that seems very unlikely). Given the publicity, and the greater access for applicants from poorer families, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect more of them to apply for this scheme, and the main application process, than currently apply. I'd argue that this increases the pool, rather than decreases it.
People from the "chosen subset" at the moment have a lower chance of success, so giving them an advantage in the earlier stages of the application process, doesn't make the overall quality of applicants worse.
I don't know how privileged your own life has been Brewster, but I honestly believe that this kind of process is important, and is one of the main reasons why the civil service isn't still selecting from a small pool of middle and upper class men, as was the case for many, many years. I obviously can't speak for you, but I'd hope you would agree that it's a good thing we've moved on from those times?
I posted later in this thread about some of the experience I had working with people who wanted to be barristers, and I can tell you for certain, that people who don't already have that middle class upbringing, and who don't know people doing similar jobs already, can get completely lost, rather than living up to their potential.
As for you last point - agreed, it sounds nonsensical, but assuming you're going to try something like this, you have to start somewhere. In fact some of those very clever people who previously got through the fast stream system likely wrote a huge report about why it's the best method. I don't know, but it's certainly better than asking Charlie Mullins :)
The latest IOD Business confidence report makes grim reading and chimes with how I feel through my own eyes and ears...
These guys are seeing the number of new orders, the number of customer enquires in real time , doesn't augur well for the coming months.
This is extreme buyers remorse and loss of confidence in Reeves , as you can see from the graph below
Hard to see how she will recover. She has to go.
These guys are seeing the number of new orders, the number of customer enquires in real time , doesn't augur well for the coming months.
This is extreme buyers remorse and loss of confidence in Reeves , as you can see from the graph below
Hard to see how she will recover. She has to go.
BlueHammer85
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This is the age of social media. Constant negativity , bile and hate.
Can you think of any party after Labour avoiding the same uproar ?
stonerblue
Well-Known Member
Being a nurse doesn't put you in the 'middle classes. I think the indicators are home owner, further education, savings/income and summat else
stonerblue
Well-Known Member
Bingo
stonerblue
Well-Known Member
Bury your head and arse in the sand muppet
BlueHammer85
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So you can’t name one then.
So what’s the positives about the labour im all ears
BlueHammer85
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Ended long running disputes and strikes in the rail sector.
Same for NHS and Doctors Strikes although recent demands to deal with.
Took quick and decisive action to stop the Farage riots.
Launched UKs biggest prison expansion in over a decade.
Bought in legislation to nationalise the railways.
Launched GB energy act and billions in green investment.
Workers rights bill - more protection against unfair dismissal, better rights for zero hour contracts and expanded paternity leave.
Increased NHS funding by 30 billion annually- waiting lists have already decreased 5%
Began recruitment for 1000 more GPs.
Increased the minimum wage.
Launched a 113 billion infrastructure project also including AI.
Have begun recruiting 6500 extra teachers.
Rolled out ‘Best Start’ hubs - backed by 500mill to support vunreable families.
Scraped Rwanda - working with EU and Macron on Migration issue and return agreement, record deportations and arrests of illegal workers up 51%.
Committed to increase defence budget to 2.5% and strengthening UK military.
Invested significantly in housing and bought in the renters rights bill which will ban no fault evictions most significantly.
Government task force to tackle homelessness with a 1 billion funding boost.
Introduced paid civil service internship programme.
Implemented ‘Ronan’s Law’ - including ban on Ninja Swords and an amnisty for illegal blades.
Enforced the online safety act prioritising child safety.