The Labour Government

[bluenova]

No words for this sort of shit. Imagine the outcry if working class were excluded from the roles. Can’t see this being legal.

Civil service interns must all be working class, government says

Internships will only go to students from poorer families in a push to make Whitehall more working class.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'd assume it's legal with it being an internship, rather than for the actual jobs.

I am curious why you're so unhappy about it? It's about getting the best candidates to apply for the roles in the civil service, which is very middle class, and parts of which are almost comically public school dominated. It's not giving preference for the jobs, but is making sure that the civil service doesn't miss out on recruiting the best people around, because 'working class' graduates don't consider applying.

When you add in the fact that these people will have a strong influence on those governing the country, then the fact that such a large section of society are hugely underrepresented, means that it's an important policy aim too.

 

[metalblue]

I'd assume it's legal with it being an internship, rather than for the actual jobs.

I am curious why you're so unhappy about it? It's about getting the best candidates to apply for the roles in the civil service, which is very middle class, and parts of which are almost comically public school dominated. It's not giving preference for the jobs, but is making sure that the civil service doesn't miss out on recruiting the best people around, because 'working class' graduates don't consider applying.

When you add in the fact that these people will have a strong influence on those governing the country, then the fact that such a large section of society are hugely underrepresented, means that it's an important policy aim too.

Jobs should always go to the best candidate without fear or favour. Around 25% of the country are working class, over 50% believe in working class values so we’re excluding 75% upward of all uni students from being able to apply.

Mrs MB grew up sharing a tin bath in front of the coal fire, mother works in care home, father retired welder. Surely the very definition of working class however as she is the first in her family to go to university to train as a nurse (since it’s a degree profession these days) she is not working class so our daughter is excluded from applying for an internship in October.

Logically if you have a degree you are no longer likely to be working class (if you put said degree to use) - and what are interns working toward? So you can be an intern but your kids will be excluded!!!!

It’s bonkers, makes no sense, and is discriminatory.

 

[BobKowalski]

I'd assume it's legal with it being an internship, rather than for the actual jobs.

I am curious why you're so unhappy about it? It's about getting the best candidates to apply for the roles in the civil service, which is very middle class, and parts of which are almost comically public school dominated. It's not giving preference for the jobs, but is making sure that the civil service doesn't miss out on recruiting the best people around, because 'working class' graduates don't consider applying.

When you add in the fact that these people will have a strong influence on those governing the country, then the fact that such a large section of society are hugely underrepresented, means that it's an important policy aim too.

Agreed. Drawing from a limited pool of talent is absurd. Even more absurd is how we are conditioned to automatically defend a status quo that already excludes swathes of people by education and class.

 

[BobKowalski]

Jobs should always go to the best candidate without fear or favour. Around 25% of the country are working class, over 50% believe in working class values so we’re excluding 75% upward of all uni students from being able to apply.

Mrs MB grew up sharing a tin bath in front of the coal fire, mother works in care home, father retired welder. Surely the very definition of working class however as she is the first in her family to go to university to train as a nurse (since it’s a degree profession these days) she is not working class so our daughter is excluded from applying for an internship in October.

Logically if you have a degree you are no longer likely to be working class (if you put said degree to use) - and what are interns working toward? So you can be an intern but your kids will be excluded!!!!

It’s bonkers, makes no sense, and is discriminatory.

The temptation to say ‘…in front of a coal fire! We had to made do with the heat from candles!’ is almost too much to resist.

So I didn’t.

 

[bluenova]

Jobs should always go to the best candidate without fear or favour. Around 25% of the country are working class, over 50% believe in working class values.

Mrs MB grew up sharing a tin bath in front of the coal fire, mother works in care home, father retired welder. Surely the very definition of working class however as she is the first in her family to go to university to train as a nurse (since it’s a degree profession these days) she is not working class so our daughter is excluded from applying for an internship in October.

Logically if you have a degree you are no longer likely to be working class (if you put said degree to use) - and what are interns working toward? So you can be an intern but your kids will be excluded!!!!

It’s bonkers, makes no sense, and is discriminatory.

But if the jobs aren't going to to the best candidates because a large section of society isn't represented? If a 6-8 week internship can take someone from a poorer background, and put them ahead of someone who has grown up with professional parents, or had an extra couple of hundred grand spent on their education, then frankly that's a sign that the system was broken in the first place.

And yes, your children are excluded, until things change. If you manage to get a job that's degree level, then your kids are less* likely to be excluded from the better jobs.

*I say 'less' because when you look at the make up of our senior civil service, the judiciary, top journalists etc., there's clearly still a long way to go before the best people get the best jobs, rather than the most privileged.

 

[metalblue]

Agreed. Drawing from a limited pool of talent is absurd. Even more absurd is how we are conditioned to automatically defend a status quo that already excludes swathes of people by education and class.

There is nothing more limiting than only allowing working class people to apply. You’re excluding 75% (or more) of students applying.

I’m staggered how little people understand the social grading of the country they live in.

 

[metalblue]

But if the jobs aren't going to to the best candidates because a large section of society isn't represented? If a 6-8 week internship can take someone from a poorer background, and put them ahead of someone who has grown up with professional parents, or had an extra couple of hundred grand spent on their education, then frankly that's a sign that the system was broken in the first place.

And yes, your children are excluded, until things change. If you manage to get a job that's degree level, then your kids are less* likely to be excluded from the better jobs.

*I say 'less' because when you look at the make up of our senior civil service, the judiciary, top journalists etc., there's clearly still a long way to go before the best people get the best jobs, rather than the most privileged.

How do you know they are not going to best candidates? You’re just making it up.

One thing for sure is if you limit the sample size to 25% or less you won’t get the best candidates.

 

[BobKowalski]

There is nothing more limiting than only allowing working class people to apply. You’re excluding 75% (or more) of students applying.

I’m staggered how little people understand the social grading of the country they live in.

Around 55% of permanent secretaries in the civil service are public school educated. Five Prime Ministers since 1945 were educated at one school, Eton. One school. That is insane. And is anyone on here moaning about it? No. Give a (predominantly white) working class lad or lass a break or two and it’s discrimination ‘gone mad’.

Our political, media, judiciary are predominantly governed from a pool of 7% of the population, so yeah, a bit of rebalancing the scales which are wildly tilted on one side, doesn’t go amiss every now and then.

 

[bluenova]

How do you know they are not going to best candidates? You’re just making it up.

One thing for sure is if you limit the sample size to 25% or less you won’t get the best candidates.

But the 6-8 week internship isn't the goal, and there are many more jobs than there are internships.

The point of the internship is to ensure the applicants for the actual jobs better represent society AND are selecting from a larger pool. There will still be a lot of competition for both the internships and the jobs, and if we have more of the best poorer candidates applying, then that's a good thing. Bear in mind that the fast stream has something like a 98% rejection rate, and that's with applicants who are already skewed towards the best educated. I'd assume the internships have even more competition. This is a long way from a free pass to a job for someone not good enough.

I'm a bit surprised at you for making this argument, as you're normally pretty thoughtful about this kind of issue. Was your daughter planning to apply? If so, I can understand the frustration.

 

[BobKowalski]

How do you know they are not going to best candidates? You’re just making it up.

One thing for sure is if you limit the sample size to 25% or less you won’t get the best candidates.

25% is still higher than 7% which no one has an issue with apparently. Go figure.

 

[metalblue]

The temptation to say ‘…in front of a coal fire! We had to made do with the heat from candles!’ is almost too much to resist.

So I didn’t.

I bet you had water though… we were spat on by the neighbours ;)

 

[metalblue]

Around 55% of permanent secretaries in the civil service are public school educated. Five Prime Ministers since 1945 were educated at one school, Eton. One school. That is insane. And is anyone on here moaning about it? No. Give a (predominantly white) working class lad or lass a break or two and it’s discrimination ‘gone mad’.

Our political, media, judiciary are predominantly governed from a pool of 7% of the population, so yeah, a bit of rebalancing the scales which are wildly tilted on one side, doesn’t go amiss every now and then.

We don’t just have working class kids and kids who went to private school. ~ 80% will fit into neither of those categories. You know, for the many not the few.

 

[metalblue]

25% is still higher than 7% which no one has an issue with apparently. Go figure.

Yet excludes 85%. I went and I figured.

 

[Brewster's millions]

I'd assume it's legal with it being an internship, rather than for the actual jobs.

I am curious why you're so unhappy about it? It's about getting the best candidates to apply for the roles in the civil service, which is very middle class, and parts of which are almost comically public school dominated. It's not giving preference for the jobs, but is making sure that the civil service doesn't miss out on recruiting the best people around, because 'working class' graduates don't consider applying.

When you add in the fact that these people will have a strong influence on those governing the country, then the fact that such a large section of society are hugely underrepresented, means that it's an important policy aim too.

That’s a ridiculous take - making sure that we get the best candidates by only accepting interns from a subset of the population. It defies any logic.

Also, as with most silly ideas, they won’t be able to implement it as intended.

How on earth are they going to check what the applicants’ parents were doing five, six, seven years ago? Looking at tax data and employer names in isolation won’t cut it.

If you take one purely hypothetical example, what if one applicant’s parent worked as a toolmaker, while another was a toolmaker with his own business and premises? Won’t we just end up with middle class people telling lies about their background and boring people to tears with silly stories about how working class they are?

 

[metalblue]

But the 6-8 week internship isn't the goal, and there are many more jobs than there are internships.

The point of the internship is to ensure the applicants for the actual jobs better represent society AND are selecting from a larger pool. There will still be a lot of competition for both the internships and the jobs, and if we have more of the best poorer candidates applying, then that's a good thing. Bear in mind that the fast stream has something like a 98% rejection rate, and that's with applicants who are already skewed towards the best educated. I'd assume the internships have even more competition. This is a long way from a free pass to a job for someone not good enough.

I'm a bit surprised at you for making this argument, as you're normally pretty thoughtful about this kind of issue. Was your daughter planning to apply? If so, I can understand the frustration.

So when 25% of people are actually working class how does making 100% of the interns working class better represent society? Making them 25% of interns would.

Why am I so animated about this? I have a strong belief in work ethic and fairness - core working class values some might say. I’d hate the idea of, having managed to do well enough at school to go on to 6th form/college and then to do well enough there to get in to university only to be given a pat on the head by old Pat McFadden saying there there you poor old lamb let’s keep those nasty non-working class people away from you and give you a free swing at this internship would be a bit, you know, patronising and unfair. I’m more than capable of standing up for myself ta Pat ya meddling old ****.

 

[bluenova]

That’s a ridiculous take - making sure that we get the best candidates by only accepting interns from a subset of the population. It defies any logic.

Also, as with most silly ideas, they won’t be able to implement it as intended.

How on earth are they going to check what the applicants’ parents were doing five, six, seven years ago? Looking at tax data and employer names in isolation won’t cut it.

If you take one purely hypothetical example, what if one applicant’s parent worked as a toolmaker, while another was a toolmaker with his own business and premises? Won’t we just end up with middle class people telling lies about their background and boring people to tears with silly stories about how working class they are?

I think you've misunderstood.

The best candidates comment is for the actual jobs. This is a Summer internship which will be used to encourage some of the best working class candidates in a position to apply for the actual jobs.

It's making the selection pool bigger, and both the internships, and the actual jobs will still be decided via a highly competitive process. More clever people ultimately applying for the jobs is why this will hopefully result in a better result.

EDIT: I've posted the actual numbers on the next page - you're looking at 200 interns, who, if they all applied for fast stream, would make up just 1 in 250 of the candidates for 1000 highest level graduate jobs available. In terms of overall civil service graduate recruitment it's a drop in the ocean.

 

[metalblue]

That’s a ridiculous take - making sure that we get the best candidates by only accepting interns from a subset of the population. It defies any logic.

Also, as with most silly ideas, they won’t be able to implement it as intended.

How on earth are they going to check what the applicants’ parents were doing five, six, seven years ago? Looking at tax data and employer names in isolation won’t cut it.

If you take one purely hypothetical example, what if one applicant’s parent worked as a toolmaker, while another was a toolmaker with his own business and premises? Won’t we just end up with middle class people telling lies about their background and boring people to tears with silly stories about how working class they are?

And then maybe becoming PM?

 

[BobKowalski]

That’s a ridiculous take - making sure that we get the best candidates by only accepting interns from a subset of the population. It defies any logic.

…

Welcome to how this country has been ruled for the last couple of centuries. A ‘subset of the population’ where one school - just one fucking school - has provided us with twenty Prime Ministers and five since 1945.

One. Fucking. School.

 

[Chippy_boy]

No words for this sort of shit. Imagine the outcry if working class were excluded from the roles. Can’t see this being legal.

Civil service interns must all be working class, government says

Internships will only go to students from poorer families in a push to make Whitehall more working class.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's absolutely outrageous. I am seriously appalled. I thought we had very long ago realised that there is not such thing as positive discrimination, only discrimination. I wonder if it's even legal?

 

[metalblue]

Welcome to how this country has been ruled for the last couple of centuries. A ‘subset of the population’ where one school - just one fucking school - has provided us with twenty Prime Ministers and five since 1945.

One. Fucking. School.

That’s a totally different problem though.