The Labour Government

[I'm With Stupid]

Are you saying social housing doesn’t count as state aid or have you got more detailed argument ?

Nah, he's saying that around 50% of social housing (in London) is occupied by foreign-born people, not that 50% of foreign-born people are in social housing. It was my fuck up.

 

[Vic]

Yeah, sorry, I misunderstood the stats.

Let me try again. Stats from AI, because I can't be arsed looking properly. 830,000 Londoners live in social housing. Of those, around 390,000 are foreign-born, and 440,000 UK-born. 3.7 million Londoners are foreign-born, which means just over 10% are in social housing. 5.2 million Londoners are UK-born, meaning around 8.5% are in social housing. So foreign-born people are slightly more likely to end up in social housing, and this is ignoring the fact that a lot of foreign born people are not eligible, which suggests that those who are eligible are quite a bit more likely to end up in social housing than the native population. Obviously all of that is just from a quick Google search and the AI answers, so I'm not going to put a huge amount of stock into it.

It also doesn't give any idea of who these people are. Obviously the anti-immigrant narrative is that people are coming over and immediately handed a free house. In reality, we might be talking about pensioners who came over in their early 20s and spent their whole life living and working in the UK.

Or it means immigrants are disproportionately lower paid - e.g. low paid ("low-skilled"?) people keeping our care system going. And the people serving us in Pret now the Europeans have gone home.

And the people publicising stats and drawing wrong conclusions are part of the hostile environment that means higher-skilled people (doctors etc) may decide the UK is too racist to want to come here.

 

[BTH]

Sort the housing problem out for one

While I don't disagree with you, you say it so glibly, as if it can be resolved just like that, with a wave of a wand.

"Housing" is a vast and complex issue which would take a lifetime to get to grips with. Legislation runs to thousands of pages on housing and associated issues, so you'd need to know where to start.

So where would you start?

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Or it means immigrants are disproportionately lower paid - e.g. low paid ("low-skilled"?) people keeping our care system going. And the people serving us in Pret now the Europeans have gone home.

And the people publicising stats and drawing wrong conclusions are part of the hostile environment that means higher-skilled people (doctors etc) may decide the UK is too racist to want to come here.

Well yeah, that too.

 

[Vic]

While I don't disagree with you, you say it so glibly, as if it can be resolved just like that, with a wave of a wand.

"Housing" is a vast and complex issue which would take a lifetime to get to grips with. Legislation runs to thousands of pages on housing and associated issues, so you'd need to know where to start.

So where would you start?

Depressing map shows the number of empty homes in every London borough

These properties include holiday lets like AirBnBs, as well as 'buy-to-leave' properties

www.mylondon.news

 

[bluemcr]

While I don't disagree with you, you say it so glibly, as if it can be resolved just like that, with a wave of a wand.

"Housing" is a vast and complex issue which would take a lifetime to get to grips with. Legislation runs to thousands of pages on housing and associated issues, so you'd need to know where to start.

So where would you start?

I don't know sadly like you have said it's a vast and complex issue. Deep down i don't think it will ever get resolved. It seems at times no one in power gives a fuck anyway. No affordable housing no kids. Both parents need to work etc etc

 

[WRicko]

No, it's bollocks spouted by the right wing media to get people to turn on each other. So the CEO who heads the company and pays huge taxes has contributed millions to the tax coffers, the corporation itself has contributed millions to the tax coffers, and all of the people who did the work that made the company profitable are a 'drain on the state.'

Not sure it’s right wing to argue most people don’t pay enough tax to cover the costs especially when most of the reason behind it is old age pension and it applies to British born not foreign born

 

[bluethrunthru]

Sort the housing problem out for one

You can build more houses than there are people to fill them but those houses won't do any work in the economy. In fact if you were to do that you would cause a massive over supply of housing thus devaluing the equity that the population holds in its property sparking a massive economic crisis as we have seen before. People do work and create wealth a smaller population = a smaller economy

 

[TedofChume]

While I don't disagree with you, you say it so glibly, as if it can be resolved just like that, with a wave of a wand.

"Housing" is a vast and complex issue which would take a lifetime to get to grips with. Legislation runs to thousands of pages on housing and associated issues, so you'd need to know where to start.

So where would you start?

Housing is actually very easy to sort out. You just build council housing like we did after the slum clearances after WW2.

That costs money, and no government wants to spend it.

I'm in my 50s now and throughout my life every incoming government has promissed to build more houses and none have ever built enough.

The thing about immigration is this, they have to live somewhere, whether that's social/council housing or the private sector and that increases the strain on the supply and demand front, so unless you build extra accommodation for every immigrant coming into this country you are making the situation worse.

Over the last five years, legal immigration is running at about 1.3m a year and emigration at about 500k a year ie a net of 800k a year. On top of this are the illegal immigrants who've come over on student visas, holidays etc and never gone back, others who have come in in lorries etc. So the net figure is much higher.

So you probably need to build 1m bedsits or a mix of HMOs every year for every one, just to stand still. Either way, unless you change planning/ building control and council finances to ensure it happens, it won't.

On top of this you have to build houses the existing population people want.

It all comes down to money.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Not sure it’s right wing to argue most people don’t pay enough tax to cover the costs especially when most of the reason behind it is old age pension and it applies to British born not foreign born

The right wing is seeing each person as an individual, and separating people into 'high value' and 'low value' individuals by trying to quantify their individual contribution to a system that is by definition collaborative. To go a bit more emotive, it's creating this idea of 'spongers' who the rest of us working people pay for, which used to only apply to the long-term unemployed, but there have been groups recently that have started to add the low-paid to this group too (you already can't bring a spouse over if you earn below a certain amount, because you would be a 'drain' on society). And you could add pensioners to that group, but people who make these arguments will then make the 'paid in all their life' claim. If we're looking at who actually takes the most out of the system compared to what they put in, then the biggest sponges in society are consultant doctors working for the NHS. But obviously that's ludicrous.

Capitalism is by definition exploitative. That's not a criticism, that's just how it works. People deliberately don't get paid their true value, because if they did, companies would never be able to make a profit.

 

[VOOMER]

Why should I?! I’m not arguing the point.

I was replying to someone who was using information that is provided by a faceless blatant racist account on X as truth, and saying to check the source.

Are you that tribal in your thinking, that you wouldn’t see that as a salient point?

I repeat
Why don't you just provide accurate information based on impartial rearch to counter his information?

 

[BridgyDids]

I repeat
Why don't you just provide accurate information based on impartial rearch to counter his information?

It’s true what they say isn’t it?

Never argue with stupid, as they’ll drag you down to their level and are better at it.

 

[Really_here]

There is. The problem, as always, is that certain people don’t want to get to the truth, they just want to be part of it.

I seem to remember that he was a peaceful protestor, against the dictatorship in Egypt (Mubarak), and also set fire to the HQ of the Muslim Brotherhood. Been arrested in Egypt multiple y times with many organisations calling for his release.

As far as I’m aware, he is a peaceful protestor who also hated what Israel were doing to Palestine.

Has he actually done any physical harm to anybody or is it those ‘hurty words’ that they keep talking about?

Don't forget our current goverment locked people up for 'hurty words' !!

 

[We've got Guardiola]

Or it means immigrants are disproportionately lower paid - e.g. low paid ("low-skilled"?) people keeping our care system going. And the people serving us in Pret now the Europeans have gone home.

And the people publicising stats and drawing wrong conclusions are part of the hostile environment that means higher-skilled people (doctors etc) may decide the UK is too racist to want to come here.

It's hard to see why any skilled person would want to come here.

Shite weather, shite lifestyle.. The only thing that was once good was the pay but that has eroded. Europeans earn more, they live better and public services etc are all better. Most doctors are leaving here and not coming here.

The only reason to come or stay at all really is language or family but that's running thin.

I don't know about you but since COVID I feel like the energy has been completely drained out of the country. The fatigue of the cost of living, gloom and general shiteness feeling is absolutely real. It must be the same for immigrants and god knows why they would actually choose (and pay!) to be part of this.

 

[meltonblue]

It's hard to see why any skilled person would want to come here.

Shite weather, shite lifestyle.. The only thing that was once good was the pay but that has eroded. Europeans earn more, they live better and public services etc are all better. Most doctors are leaving here and not coming here.

The only reason to come or stay at all really is language or family but that's running thin.

I don't know about you but since COVID I feel like the energy has been completely drained out of the country. The fatigue of the cost of living, gloom and general shiteness feeling is absolutely real. It must be the same for immigrants and god knows why they would actually choose (and pay!) to be part of this.

Been since the financial crash really and then a few things since we’ve pushed on the accelerator even more.

Each of those accelerators have been voted for and yet still the electorate looks for someone else to blame. Fuck knows how bad it’ll get before some realisation kicks in again.

 

[WRicko]

You can build more houses than there are people to fill them but those houses won't do any work in the economy. In fact if you were to do that you would cause a massive over supply of housing thus devaluing the equity that the population holds in its property sparking a massive economic crisis as we have seen before. People do work and create wealth a smaller population = a smaller economy

No one is suggesting building more house than people not that that would be possible. We might have to have a brief over supply and fall in the market to get rid of the backlog of homlessness council waiting lists people still living with parents etc and make housing more affordable as proportion of income.

People do work and create wealth ? Yes what’s your point

 

[Vic]

No one is suggesting building more house than people not that that would be possible. We might have to have a brief over supply and fall in the market to get rid of the backlog of homlessness council waiting lists people still living with parents etc and make housing more affordable as proportion of income.

People do work and create wealth ? Yes what’s your point

Daily Express headline in two years:

"Without more immigration the value of your house will fall"

Stick a flag on that!

 

[Rascal]

Statistics from the 2021 Census indicate that 47.6% of social housing in
London
is occupied by households where the "Household Reference Person" (lead tenant) was born outside the UK.
However, official reports and fact-checkers provide further context regarding this figure:

• Citizenship Status: Of those foreign-born lead tenants in London's social housing, approximately 68% hold a British passport. Being "foreign-born" is not equivalent to being a current foreign national or a recent immigrant.
• Duration of Residence: The vast majority of these foreign-born tenants have lived in the UK for decades. Only about 1.2% of social housing tenants are foreign nationals who moved to the UK recently (since 2017).
• Comparison to General Population: The figure is consistent with London's overall demographics, where 49% of all household heads (across all housing types) were born overseas.
• New Lettings: Government data for 2024/25 show that 89% of all new social housing lettings in England went to UK nationals. In London specifically, 83% of new social lets go to British nationals

 

[Vic]

Statistics from the 2021 Census indicate that 47.6% of social housing in
London
is occupied by households where the "Household Reference Person" (lead tenant) was born outside the UK.
However, official reports and fact-checkers provide further context regarding this figure:

• Citizenship Status: Of those foreign-born lead tenants in London's social housing, approximately 68% hold a British passport. Being "foreign-born" is not equivalent to being a current foreign national or a recent immigrant.
• Duration of Residence: The vast majority of these foreign-born tenants have lived in the UK for decades. Only about 1.2% of social housing tenants are foreign nationals who moved to the UK recently (since 2017).
• Comparison to General Population: The figure is consistent with London's overall demographics, where 49% of all household heads (across all housing types) were born overseas.
• New Lettings: Government data for 2024/25 show that 89% of all new social housing lettings in England went to UK nationals. In London specifically, 83% of new social lets go to British nationals

I think we've already established that the way the statistics have been used is the equivalent of putting a flag on a lamppost and saying it's about patriotism.

 

[Eric Hitchmough]

I'm in the "they're doing pretty well" camp.

But they've lost the information war so they'll lose the election.

Where do you feel they have excelled, mate?

Genuine question btw, not sarcasm.