The Labour Party

purplenose said:
As a matter of interest for those who see no problem with almost unlimited immigration and bang on about those who question it being racist and so on. Please explain to me how we can actually accommodate these folks.

Last I heard we are short of housing. Those of us already resident in this shit tip of a country cannot get doctors appointments, dentists, jobs that are not zero hour slavery and so on.

In short any government chosen from any party at all cannot put that right so what they say. We have homeless in every town, the country is an absolute shambles from top to bottom yet the left leaning amongst us seem to think we can take even more people from 3rd world and war stricken countries, many of whom will require medical attention, education, and mostly speak little or no English.

So come on speak up lets hear it....how will this work?

We have neither the infrastructure nor the means to put it in place, we are full simple as that. No room at the inn.

On here people constantly harp on about the far right whilst failing to see that even the moderate left are a much bigger threat to this country than this minority of far right idiots who command so much attention.

Selfishly I would personally say let the left go ahead and destroy this country as I probably wont be here to see the worst of the consequences of this blatant and spectacular stupidity. This country going up in flames and turning into a bloodbath would be no more than these fools deserve so fuck them. I have kids though and they will be around for the horrors that lie ahead and therefore I cannot say that.

I have made it clear to those kids that there is no future for them in this country and they should seek to make a future elsewhere as this place is finished.
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Bump....any offers? How do we accommodate all these new people we are going to let in? No replies is that because we cannot do it perhaps?
 
purplenose said:
Bump....any offers? How do we accommodate all these new people we are going to let in? No replies is that because we cannot do it perhaps?
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How do we accommodate current new immigrants? Presumably in part those from outside the EU take up places to live and the jobs of those from the EU who left?
 
bluethrunthru said:
How do we accommodate current new immigrants? Presumably in part those from outside the EU take up places to live and the jobs of those from the EU who left?
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Of course those who have left the UK have done so because of Brexit....nothing to do with the fact that they are returning in many cases because they can now have a better standard of living in their countries of birth ie Poland.

Those from outside the EU as I have said before are in the majority not in anyway able to fill those roles in any case.

Again I ask where are they going to live? How are they going to get medical treatment? How are they going to commute given our public transport is not fit for purpose and our roads are gridlocked.
 
purplenose said:
Of course those who have left the UK have done so because of Brexit....nothing to do with the fact that they are returning in many cases because they can now have a better standard of living in their countries of birth ie Poland.

Those from outside the EU as I have said before are in the majority not in anyway able to fill those roles in any case.

Again I ask where are they going to live? How are they going to get medical treatment? How are they going to commute given our public transport is not fit for purpose and our roads are gridlocked.
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Immigration is an emotive topic and there are lots of misunderstandings and misconceptions about it. You’ve mentioned unlimited immigration in your last post and nowhere has that (to my knowledge) ever been suggested anywhere.


I know people from all parts of the world that have emigrated to the UK and many others that have moved from the UK. I myself have gone through the immigration process here in NZ and all forms of immigration application, in all countries, can be long, complicated and expensive.


There are many types of immigration too, each have their own rules and regulations and can depend on where in the world you are a citizen of. For example applying for some work visas to the UK from a non EEC country includes making a lump sum payment towards healthcare even if they have private health insurance (It could be for all or most of them but I’m only aware of this).


I’d encourage you to speak to some immigrants who can speak to their experience of the system. You may hear positive and negative experiences of the process along with differing reasons why they wanted to move to the UK, I can guarantee it’ll be far from the Health Tourism, Benefits Claiming lies that is peddled by some media outlets.


Immigrants are usually of working age, paying taxes towards the things you mention without being a drain on them. Housing, transport, healthcare, these are more negatively impacted by people having children than immigration. Transport, Healthcare and Education have suffered from austerity and being criminally underfunded and mismanaged for decades by both local and national government.

It would be naïve to say that immigration doesn’t have some impact on these but that impact is grossly overstated and weaponised.

Comments like “the country is full” or “we’re at breaking point” I find to be disingenuous and turns people off engaging.
 
Fame Monster said:
There's a difference between closing the borders and making sure that the immigrants who come over here can support themselves and support the country. Labour seem to want to get rid of such checks for ideological reasons no matter how unpopular or damaging it is.
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That is not how i read it,

  • Oppose the current Tory immigration legislation and any curbing of rights.
  • Campaign for free movement, equality and rights for migrants.
  • Reject any immigration system based on incomes, migrants’ utility to business, and number caps/targets.
  • Close all detention centres.
  • Ensure unconditional right to family reunion.
  • Maintain and extend free movement rights.
  • End “no recourse to public funds” policies.
  • Scrap all Hostile Environment measures, use of landlords and public service providers as border guards, and restrictions on migrants’ NHS access.
  • Actively challenge anti-immigrant narratives.
Free movement is not immigration, we have had free movement across the UK for hundreds of years and we do not see the Scots or Welsh as immigrants, because they have freedom of movement within the Union.

There is nothing in the above to suggest that an open borders policy is what the Labour Party are persuing,
 
purplenose said:
As a matter of interest for those who see no problem with almost unlimited immigration and bang on about those who question it being racist and so on. Please explain to me how we can actually accommodate these folks.

Last I heard we are short of housing. Those of us already resident in this shit tip of a country cannot get doctors appointments, dentists, jobs that are not zero hour slavery and so on.

In short any government chosen from any party at all cannot put that right so what they say. We have homeless in every town, the country is an absolute shambles from top to bottom yet the left leaning amongst us seem to think we can take even more people from 3rd world and war stricken countries, many of whom will require medical attention, education, and mostly speak little or no English.

So come on speak up lets hear it....how will this work?

We have neither the infrastructure nor the means to put it in place, we are full simple as that. No room at the inn.

On here people constantly harp on about the far right whilst failing to see that even the moderate left are a much bigger threat to this country than this minority of far right idiots who command so much attention.

Selfishly I would personally say let the left go ahead and destroy this country as I probably wont be here to see the worst of the consequences of this blatant and spectacular stupidity. This country going up in flames and turning into a bloodbath would be no more than these fools deserve so fuck them. I have kids though and they will be around for the horrors that lie ahead and therefore I cannot say that.

I have made it clear to those kids that there is no future for them in this country and they should seek to make a future elsewhere as this place is finished.
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Who is proposing unlimited immigration?
Who said opposing immigration was racist?
We are short of housing, Doctors, Dentists etc, because the Government chose to follow the path of austerity.
The homeless is problem is complex, but the destruction of social hosing stocks is as much to blame as anything.
What evidence do you have they will need medical attention and are you confusing immigration with asylum?

You have fallen for the right wing trick of scapegoating that they use to cover up their incompetence.

Realistically we need immigration as we are approaching a Malthusian time bomb of an ageing population and falling birth rates. That will mean that the tax burden on those who work will increase to pay for the pensions of the growing number of people who live longer. Your kids will be paying far more tax without immigration than they would if we have immigration and people will have to work to an even greater age, it is already increasing because the time bomb is getting closer by the day.

There are over 100 languages now spoken in Manchester alone, that does not mean they don't speak English, it means that the older immigrant folk converse in their native tongue with the younger folk. That will eventually change as shown by English becoming the dominant language in these isles whilst welsh, Cornish, Scotch Gaelic take secondary importance. Farage hearing people on a train is not a fact it is an anecdote.

I find it astonishing you think the moderate left are more dangerous than the far right, you sound like you have been radicalised.
 
Rascal said:
AH!

Well its good that your privileged education allowed a poor kid a half baked education then.

I went to run down comprehensive school and of course I will defer to your good yourself because that is how it is supposed to work is it not. I should know my place, I apologise.
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I'm from Crumpsall, Bud. And my education wasn't privileged but it was expensive, including the professional training I got. FWIW, I was at a direct grant Grammar School with people from all sorts of backgrounds.
 
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urban genie said:
See as a proponent of the ideas of Pyotr Alexeyevich Kropotkin, I don't envy wealth or money or property, and have no desire to acumulate more than is necessary to live.

Any extra I have can be equally distributed for the good of family, friends and thos eless fortunate.
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Wonderful outlook that, how uplifting.
Why would anyone with such an egalitarian view need a government to make him do it?
Socialists always want someone else to be doing the paying.
 
Rascal said:
Who said opposing immigration was racist?
We are short of housing, Doctors, Dentists etc, because the Government chose to follow the path of austerity.
The homeless is problem is complex, but the destruction of social hosing stocks is as much to blame as anything.
What evidence do you have they will need medical attention and are you confusing immigration with asylum?

You have fallen for the right wing trick of scapegoating that they use to cover up their incompetence.

Realistically we need immigration as we are approaching a Malthusian time bomb of an ageing population and falling birth rates. That will mean that the tax burden on those who work will increase to pay for the pensions of the growing number of people who live longer. Your kids will be paying far more tax without immigration than they would if we have immigration and people will have to work to an even greater age, it is already increasing because the time bomb is getting closer by the day.

There are over 100 languages now spoken in Manchester alone, that does not mean they don't speak English, it means that the older immigrant folk converse in their native tongue with the younger folk. That will eventually change as shown by English becoming the dominant language in these isles whilst welsh, Cornish, Scotch Gaelic take secondary importance. Farage hearing people on a train is not a fact it is an anecdote.

I find it astonishing you think the moderate left are more dangerous than the far right, you sound like you have been radicalised.
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Unlimited immigration is being proposed by the Labour party.

Suggesting questioning immigration has been called out as racist on here frequently and in the country beyond BM by the left...though crying racism is the default setting of a large number of left supporters.

Agreed the housing problem is complex and I agree with your views on its cause by and large.

Maybe you have a point in immigration and asylum being at least overlapped, point taken. I agree we need people to come in but my point still stands on our infrastructure, perhaps a strict Australian style would go someway to help in terms of our infrastructure. Again though to suggest even that has had the lefties on here foaming at the mouth.

I can assure you I have fallen for no right wing propaganda nor the left I have based my views on my own experiences.

I am not concerned what language people speak as long as they are able to speak English if they wish to live and work here.

I maintain my views that the moderate left are a menace in so much as they would and are championing the far left policies of Corbyn rather than their own moderate beliefs, perhaps that is indicative of a lack of moderate left influence anywhere near the top of the lefty tree. A more Blairite direction would certainly attract me were it not including going into wars and backing the likes of Kigame from Rwanda for example,

By suggesting I have been radicalised does kind of back up my view. I can assure you since I discovered the amount of lies and nonsense we were lead to believe regarding Eastern Europe during the cold war years I have been somewhat less easily lead and of course unlike then we have plenty of media that enables one to get access to all sides of the story and thus a more balanced view can be formed.
 
purplenose said:
Unlimited immigration is being proposed by the Labour party.

Suggesting questioning immigration has been called out as racist on here frequently and in the country beyond BM by the left...though crying racism is the default setting of a large number of left supporters.

Agreed the housing problem is complex and I agree with your views on its cause by and large.

Maybe you have a point in immigration and asylum being at least overlapped, point taken. I agree we need people to come in but my point still stands on our infrastructure, perhaps a strict Australian style would go someway to help in terms of our infrastructure. Again though to suggest even that has had the lefties on here foaming at the mouth.

I can assure you I have fallen for no right wing propaganda nor the left I have based my views on my own experiences.

I am not concerned what language people speak as long as they are able to speak English if they wish to live and work here.

I maintain my views that the moderate left are a menace in so much as they would and are championing the far left policies of Corbyn rather than their own moderate beliefs, perhaps that is indicative of a lack of moderate left influence anywhere near the top of the lefty tree. A more Blairite direction would certainly attract me were it not including going into wars and backing the likes of Kigame from Rwanda for example,

By suggesting I have been radicalised does kind of back up my view. I can assure you since I discovered the amount of lies and nonsense we were lead to believe regarding Eastern Europe during the cold war years I have been somewhat less easily lead and of course unlike then we have plenty of media that enables one to get access to all sides of the story and thus a more balanced view can be formed.
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They are not proposing unlimited immigration.

I am on the supposed far left of the party, I have not called anybody racist.

Infrastructure needs investment, our government preferred austerity,

I am fine with an Australian style points system as most on the left are, that is why they are not proposing unlimited immigration, I am not foaming at the mouth.

I must be a real menace as I am to the left of Corbyn.

Blairism was a disaster, it was just another neo-liberal whitewash, with added war.

Of course people should speak English if they want to work here, just as when any Englishman who works abroad should learn the language. The problem with that is though will we have to sell Aguero?

What did you discover about Eastern Europe?

What media do you use?
 
ROCKET80 said:
Immigration is an emotive topic and there are lots of misunderstandings and misconceptions about it. You’ve mentioned unlimited immigration in your last post and nowhere has that (to my knowledge) ever been suggested anywhere.


I know people from all parts of the world that have emigrated to the UK and many others that have moved from the UK. I myself have gone through the immigration process here in NZ and all forms of immigration application, in all countries, can be long, complicated and expensive.


There are many types of immigration too, each have their own rules and regulations and can depend on where in the world you are a citizen of. For example applying for some work visas to the UK from a non EEC country includes making a lump sum payment towards healthcare even if they have private health insurance (It could be for all or most of them but I’m only aware of this).


I’d encourage you to speak to some immigrants who can speak to their experience of the system. You may hear positive and negative experiences of the process along with differing reasons why they wanted to move to the UK, I can guarantee it’ll be far from the Health Tourism, Benefits Claiming lies that is peddled by some media outlets.


Immigrants are usually of working age, paying taxes towards the things you mention without being a drain on them. Housing, transport, healthcare, these are more negatively impacted by people having children than immigration. Transport, Healthcare and Education have suffered from austerity and being criminally underfunded and mismanaged for decades by both local and national government.

It would be naïve to say that immigration doesn’t have some impact on these but that impact is grossly overstated and weaponised.


Comments like “the country is full” or “we’re at breaking point” I find to be disingenuous and turns people off engaging.
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I have spoken to plenty of immigrants and have also seen what happened at Grenfell, I have seen numerous houses turned into virtual workers hostels for immigrant workers housing maybe 20 of these blokes causing upset to families in the area. We cannot house these people in any decent manner. Do you dispute this? Sure professional immigrants in some cases maybe able to afford to get better accommodation but this still flows downwards and is at least partly to blame for the amount of homeless on the streets. The amount of young people such as my two lads who have no chance of being able to get social housing or indeed afford to get their own places. One working full time the other doing A levels.

Of course I agree that immigration has been weaponised however the left are as guilty as the right in this.

Saying we are at breaking point is not disingenous it is fact, if you had seen old folks lined up in corridors in the hospitals or even tried gaining access to medical treatment, driven on our roads you would know this. How much a strict immigration policy allowing people in to help remedy this will help to alter this I honestly dont know.
 
Rascal said:
They are not proposing unlimited immigration.

I am on the supposed far left of the party, I have not called anybody racist.

Maybe you have not, plenty have or would you deny that?

Infrastructure needs investment, our government preferred austerity,

Agreed

I am fine with an Australian style points system as most on the left are, that is why they are not proposing unlimited immigration, I am not foaming at the mouth.

Fair comments, though there are lots that are foaming at the mouth.

I must be a real menace as I am to the left of Corbyn.

If you are left of Corbyn and were to be elected into power then yes I am sorry to say in my view you would be a menace.

Blairism was a disaster, it was just another neo-liberal whitewash, with added war.

I cannot disagree with you on this one which illustrates what a sad state of affairs it is that his govenance was probably about as good as its been for a generation.

Of course people should speak English if they want to work here, just as when any Englishman who works abroad should learn the language. The problem with that is though will we have to sell Aguero?

He is getting on a bit lol

What did you discover about Eastern Europe?

Same as everyone else who who lived through the cold war years and has subsequently discovered that they were not intent on wiping us out in a nuclear holocaust and infact behind the iron curtain lay some pretty good places to go full of people who know how to party with the best.

What media do you use?
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Too extensive to list really but of course you know that the internet has made it much more difficult for any government to peddle nonsense, though sadly it seems they are finding ways to do so.
 
purplenose said:
Too extensive to list really but of course you know that the internet has made it much more difficult for any government to peddle nonsense, though sadly it seems they are finding ways to do so.
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A wide range of sources is good, it helps formulate opinion. I will read almost anything that informs and watch stuff on you tube from Brendan O'Neill to Owen Jones and then make my own mind up as to who and what I believe to be right
 
Rascal said:
A wide range of sources is good, it helps formulate opinion. I will read almost anything that informs and watch stuff on you tube from Brendan O'Neill to Owen Jones and then make my own mind up as to who and what I believe to be right
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likewise, I like to think at least I am open minded enough to at least listen to as many opinions and beliefs as I can.
 
Rascal said:
That is not how i read it,

  • Oppose the current Tory immigration legislation and any curbing of rights.
  • Campaign for free movement, equality and rights for migrants.
  • Reject any immigration system based on incomes, migrants’ utility to business, and number caps/targets.
  • Close all detention centres.
  • Ensure unconditional right to family reunion.
  • Maintain and extend free movement rights.
  • End “no recourse to public funds” policies.
  • Scrap all Hostile Environment measures, use of landlords and public service providers as border guards, and restrictions on migrants’ NHS access.
  • Actively challenge anti-immigrant narratives.
Free movement is not immigration, we have had free movement across the UK for hundreds of years and we do not see the Scots or Welsh as immigrants, because they have freedom of movement within the Union.

There is nothing in the above to suggest that an open borders policy is what the Labour Party are persuing,
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I'm glad you brought the thread back on topic.

Anyway, many of the policies above strip away the substance of any immigration legislation that ensures that individuals who come over here contribute and benefit the country rather than take away from it. Realistically, it's an attempt to extend and increase immigration for ideological reasons rather than economic ones.

I agree that there's good economic arguments for certain levels of immigration due to an ageing population but I think it's a massive exaggeration to call it a 'Malthusian timebomb'. 1 in 5 of our population is over 65, that will slowly change to 1 in 4 around 2050 and thereafter it will pretty much flatline. That means there's an argument for low levels of immigration but probably not the levels of immigration the above policies seem to want to introduce, especially when there's not gonna be any income-related checks to ensure that a person is contributing to the country in the first place and given that large scale immigration requires massive borrowing and spending on infrastructure for capacity reasons (HS2, Crossrail, roads, power plants etc). We're also under a legal obligation to eliminate our carbon emissions by 2050 - again, that's made much harder by a bigger population. That's without mentioning all the other arguments about current immigration levels already outstripping supply of new-build homes etc.

But leaving all that aside, it's not a vote winner and that's my point. In order to do anything, Labour have to win an election. They need policies that appeal to the electorate and whether you agree with it or not, extending the welfare state to everyone who comes here irrespective of their contribution is enormously unpopular and the perception that Labour are complicit in that is a big reason (among others) why people voted for Brexit and why Labour haven't been in power for a decade.
 
Rascal said:
A wide range of sources is good, it helps formulate opinion. I will read almost anything that informs and watch stuff on you tube from Brendan O'Neill to Owen Jones and then make my own mind up as to who and what I believe to be right
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Correct.

I’ll watch stuff from Aaron Bastani to Steve Bannon interviews.

I want to know what everyone is saying and thinking and I want to know all ideas.

I’ve come to the conclusion the latter is a complete **** and I despise his ideas but I listen to him.

Surprising that I’ll say this but the main reason I come on here is to get a range of views, it’s certainly not an echo chamber.
 
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