The Labour Party

Rascal said:
Are you seriously comparing a Trotskyite group with people who deliver leaflets.

Seriously.
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Not as I know of, I'm just saying that Johnson is right, if you want socialism, form the Socialist party of Britain, if it's what people want, it would fly, would it not?
I'm not particularly au fait with who does the leaflet delivering.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Not as I know of, I'm just saying that Johnson is right, if you want socialism, form the Socialist party of Britain, if it's what people want, it would fly, would it not?
I'm not particularly au fait with who does the leaflet delivering.
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We had a Socialist party, it was called the Labour party and without it much of what we take for granted today would never have happened. Johnson was part of the cabal that hijacked the Labour party and turned them into a UK version of the American Democrats. A socially liberal party with an economically conservative program. We already have one of those though in this country when it behaves itself and is not kowtowing to the far right nut jobs in that party, its called the Conservative party.

It was momentum members who did a lot of the campaigning, they delivered the leaflets and campaign materials, they produced the video clips promoting Labour party policy, of course non momentum members did as well because I did myself and i left momentum a few years ago. But no more will i be campaigning whilst the party veers to the right away from its principles.
 
Rascal said:
Can you give me one instance of Momentum campaigning on anything that was not Labour party policy?
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I don't know if you've seen their Twitter feed but every other post is slagging off Starmer or Labour policy or anybody that dares challenge their student politics - that's why Johnson was spot on when he called them a cult.
 
Rascal said:
We had a Socialist party, it was called the Labour party and without it much of what we take for granted today would never have happened. Johnson was part of the cabal that hijacked the Labour party and turned them into a UK version of the American Democrats. A socially liberal party with an economically conservative program. We already have one of those though in this country when it behaves itself and is not kowtowing to the far right nut jobs in that party, its called the Conservative party.

It was momentum members who did a lot of the campaigning, they delivered the leaflets and campaign materials, they produced the video clips promoting Labour party policy, of course non momentum members did as well because I did myself and i left momentum a few years ago. But no more will i be campaigning whilst the party veers to the right away from its principles.
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I don't know about elsewhere but we had no idea where Momentum were campaigning as it wasn't our ward. Why would you campaign any more? Didn't you say you've left the Party?

The idea that postwar Labour was historically very left hardly does justice to divisions within the Party (which didn't help in 1951), nor to how the Liberal Party campaigned in the 60s:

historian-3[1].jpg
 
Rascal said:
We had a Socialist party, it was called the Labour party and without it much of what we take for granted today would never have happened. Johnson was part of the cabal that hijacked the Labour party and turned them into a UK version of the American Democrats. A socially liberal party with an economically conservative program. We already have one of those though in this country when it behaves itself and is not kowtowing to the far right nut jobs in that party, its called the Conservative party.

It was momentum members who did a lot of the campaigning, they delivered the leaflets and campaign materials, they produced the video clips promoting Labour party policy, of course non momentum members did as well because I did myself and i left momentum a few years ago. But no more will i be campaigning whilst the party veers to the right away from its principles.
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Labour dumped clause four, so I presume you'd only re join if this was reinstated?
 
Fame Monster said:
I don't know if you've seen their Twitter feed but every other post is slagging off Starmer or Labour policy or anybody that dares challenge their student politics - that's why Johnson was spot on when he called them a cult.
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I have not.

I slag Starmer off and I am way beyond my student days.
 
Vic said:
I don't know about elsewhere but we had no idea where Momentum were campaigning as it wasn't our ward. Why would you campaign any more? Didn't you say you've left the Party?

The idea that postwar Labour was historically very left hardly does justice to divisions within the Party (which didn't help in 1951), nor to how the Liberal Party campaigned in the 60s:

View attachment 5815
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You probably wouldn't have had any idea because Momentum members are Labour Party members too. They don't have hats with Momentum on or Labour on.

I have never said Labour have or should be "very" left, as i have no idea what that means, what I have said repeatedly is that Labour should be a Democratic Socialist party or it is nothing.

What the Labour party did post WW2 was establish the post WW2 Social Consensus which even the Tories eventually bought into because the Labour party had dragged the Overton window leftwards and for the Tories to be relevant they had to buy into Labour's positioning. The Tories actually build more council houses than Labour after they regained power because council housing was popular and Labour had started the move to Socialise the state. It was only when The Witch took power did the Tories become more right wing and left over 20 years of One Nation conservatism behind.

the 51 election if my memory serves me right as i cant be arsed be googling it was an election where Labour won the popular vote but lost the election due to the vagaries of FPTP. It meant the Tories were in a way beholden to the Labour election manifesto, which to be fair they did in terms of council housing and not reversing the nationalisations of the 45 Atlee Government. From what i recall the Liberals had sunk to about 5 seats at that time and were almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. A place they stayed until the 80s and the merger with the SDP.
 
Rascal said:
You probably wouldn't have had any idea because Momentum members are Labour Party members too. They don't have hats with Momentum on or Labour on.

I have never said Labour have or should be "very" left, as i have no idea what that means, what I have said repeatedly is that Labour should be a Democratic Socialist party or it is nothing.

What the Labour party did post WW2 was establish the post WW2 Social Consensus which even the Tories eventually bought into because the Labour party had dragged the Overton window leftwards and for the Tories to be relevant they had to buy into Labour's positioning. The Tories actually build more council houses than Labour after they regained power because council housing was popular and Labour had started the move to Socialise the state. It was only when The Witch took power did the Tories become more right wing and left over 20 years of One Nation conservatism behind.

the 51 election if my memory serves me right as i cant be arsed be googling it was an election where Labour won the popular vote but lost the election due to the vagaries of FPTP. It meant the Tories were in a way beholden to the Labour election manifesto, which to be fair they did in terms of council housing and not reversing the nationalisations of the 45 Atlee Government. From what i recall the Liberals had sunk to about 5 seats at that time and were almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. A place they stayed until the 80s and the merger with the SDP.
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I know someone is a momentum supporter when he's holding up a team of five canvassers by trying to persuade someone who's not going to vote Labour anyway that Corbyn is not like the right wing press paint him. Whereas I'm saying to people you can still vote for Labour because there's no way Corbyn can get an overall majority but you really don't want Johnson to get one.

And yes, Labour's vote in 1951 was the most any party had ever got. Just massive majorities in safe seats.
 
Vic said:
Whereas I'm saying to people you can still vote for Labour because there's no way Corbyn can get an overall majority but you really don't want Johnson to get one.
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Why would you parrot what the right wing media have instructed people to think?
 
Rascal said:
Why would you parrot what the right wing media have instructed people to think?
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I didn't. Just no point wasting time trying to argue with people who have bought it.

"Thank you for your time". Go next door. Essentially in December we were just collecting numbers of Labour supporters who weren't put off by Corbyn (or who still thought Brexit was a good idea).
 
Vic said:
I didn't. Just no point wasting time trying to argue with people who have bought it.

"Thank you for your time". Go next door. Essentially in December we were just collecting numbers of Labour supporters who weren't put off by Corbyn (or who still thought Brexit was a good idea).
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Fair enough.

Its like the Emptyhad story, it is now a fact that the Etihad is never full just like it became a fact Corbyn was unelectable

If a lie is only printed often enough, it becomes a quasi-truth, and if such a truth is repeated often enough, it becomes an article of belief, a dogma, and men will die for it.

The Crown of a Life (1869) by Isa Blagden.

Often attributed to Goebbels and Lenin..
 
Rascal said:
Fair enough.

Its like the Emptyhad story, it is now a fact that the Etihad is never full just like it became a fact Corbyn was unelectable

If a lie is only printed often enough, it becomes a quasi-truth, and if such a truth is repeated often enough, it becomes an article of belief, a dogma, and men will die for it.

The Crown of a Life (1869) by Isa Blagden.

Often attributed to Goebbels and Lenin..
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But we have attendance figures to show that the Etihad is often full whereas Corbyn never got elected and led Labour to their worst defeat since 1935.
 
Fame Monster said:
But we have attendance figures to show that the Etihad is often full whereas Corbyn never got elected and led Labour to their worst defeat since 1935.
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Even when he (temporarily), got the Henrietta's and Rupert's from Glasto to
sing his name, when he came up against probably the most ineffective PM ever, he was still shy of 50 plus seats in the subsequent election.
He was poison for Labour, particularly amongst traditional Labour supporters,
his main followers were the middle class, southern urbanites who love to champion the cause of a 'Working Class' they understand nothing about.
 
Fame Monster said:
But we have attendance figures to show that the Etihad is often full whereas Corbyn never got elected and led Labour to their worst defeat since 1935.
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Before and after arguments. There are countless pictures showing the etihad empty.

Are you fucking stupid on purpose?
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Not as I know of, I'm just saying that Johnson is right, if you want socialism, form the Socialist party of Britain, if it's what people want, it would fly, would it not?
I'm not particularly au fait with who does the leaflet delivering.
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That would put the split in the party to bed - just as the Tories splitting into two party's with one led by Ken Clarke and another by Rees-Mogg would do. The problem is that in our current electoral system (no PR) the numbers would not be sufficient to form a govt. This means labour have to find a way to carry everyone along like Blair did - Starmer has exactly the same problem as Corbyn in this respect, except he's keeping the centre-right instead of the left happy. I suspect Labour are still going to have at least one more change of leader over the next 4 years.
 
Rascal said:
Before and after arguments. There are countless pictures showing the etihad empty.

Are you fucking stupid on purpose?
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The Etihad is sometimes full: it is sometimes empty.

Corbyn has always lost a general election.

Even you can follow the logic of that and see why your comparison is nonsense.
 
Fame Monster said:
The Etihad is sometimes full: it is sometimes empty.

Corbyn has always lost a general election.

Even you can follow the logic of that and see why your comparison is nonsense.
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Stop being a halfwit.

If you cant understand the point i am making go and post about something you do understand, like play doh or something.
 
Rascal said:
Another example of stupidity in a thread full of it.

That is just fucking nonsense.
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It's the truth.

Pat everyone in the head and tell them how bad they have got it.....

Millions in the North told them to fuck off and stop patronising me.
 
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