The Labour Party

[Postman Pep]

JVL responds to Jeremy Corbyn’s statement

Rescind all suspensions of members who supported Jeremy Corbyn Supplementary statement: Things have moved swiftly since we issue the statement…

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

 

[Fame Monster]

The nonsense about culture wars and stuff i meant. If momentum as you believe are of the hard left, then you are being contradictory. The hard left has no interest in culture wars, you are confusing the hard left with the liberal left. The liberal left is full of culture warriors. The far left is all about the working class over the capitalist, it is patriotic and it is proud of the UKs history. After all its the working class who have done the dying to create that history. You are confusing the metro liberal left with the Socialist left. Starmer is of the metro liberal left, Blair was. Momentum was a grass roots agency set up to campaign on behalf of socialist policies and to support Corbyn and Socialism. Socialism is not compatible with this cultural war stuff, because it is not about class.

Any extreme of the political spectrum, whether that's the hard left or hard right, have a history of cultural/historical repression and that's why we're seeing over here and in the US with the current strain of hard-left.

We saw that with the Nazis with their ban on 'degenerate art' and we saw that in the Soviet Union with the Russian Association of Proletariat Music/Writing/whatever else responsible for banning the culture/art of anyone who didn't tow the party line, most infamously the music of Rachmaninov. There were plenty within the Bolshevik movement who even wanted to ban pianos so the hard left have form for this kind of politics.

In many ways, it explains why they're called the 'hard' left/right because these are extreme ideas and recently - seemingly coincided with the rise of Corbynism - we've seen a re-emergence of this stuff whether that's by tearing down statues, teaching/banning stuff for political rather than historical reasons, censoring tv programmes etc.

Obivously, being a Socialist doesn't necessitate that you believe in this kind of stuff or lack patriotism but there does seem to be a significant crossover.

 

[Rascal]

Honest question bud. Which politician today would you like to see head the Labour party who will deliver policies which suit your specific political viewpoint?

Maybe Rebecca Long Bailey or Ian Lavery. They would have to be a Democratic Socialist and not a Social Democrat, I don't want anyone with liberal ideals, traditional Labour always had a small C conservative approach, it is patriotic, it is strong on defence, it is strong on police, it cares first and foremost about the working class, it refutes neo-liberal economics, regulates the markets, brings vital industry and infrastructure under state control, it pursues the mantra of from each according to their ability, from each according to their needs, it attempts to create equality of opportunity not equality of outcome, it respects traditional family values, it never panders to racists or bigotry of any form. It makes sure everyone has a home, everyone has a job, if they cant work then they have a proper safety net, they look after the old properly with a real pension and proper social care. They treat mental health as seriously as they treat physical health, they never privatise the NHS in any shape or form. Immigration is controlled but asylum seekers are made welcome, we leave and stay out of the EU, we question the mission of NATO and we build a proper army, airforce and navy and get rid of useless vanity nuclear weapons. The party is internationalist not isolationalist. It is secular yet respects the rights to religion, it ends the vacuous system of hereditary and religious representation in parliament. It is federalist and unionist, it respects devolution and furthers it to the regions, it gives power back to local leaders and away from Whitehall. It gets rid of zero hours contracts, it taxes wealth properly and income appropriatelty in a progressive manner. It reduces the regressive VAT and puts an end to tax avoidance and closes tax havens. Corporations pay proper tax and sweetheart deals to corporations are made illegal. Eventually introduce UBI and shorten the working week to 30 hours, invest in the arts, they are just as much for the working class as they are for the capitalist class. Sport is made central to health and all sports clubs are funded properly and not allowed to be owned by cunts.

There is more but my tea is ready, that is a taster of the "far" left politics of Rascal. Make of it what you will.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

JVL responds to Jeremy Corbyn’s statement

Rescind all suspensions of members who supported Jeremy Corbyn Supplementary statement: Things have moved swiftly since we issue the statement…

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

Genuinely interested in this groups stance- From wiki:
The organisation has been described as controversial[32] and the Jewish Labour Movement has called its views an "extreme fringe".[33] Jewish Leadership Council chairman Jonathan Goldstein has said that JVL is "not representative of our community".[34] Board of Deputies of British Jews President Marie van der Zyl has referred to JVL as "a tiny organisation whose odious views are representative of no-one but themselves."[35] Jon Lansman, founder of Momentum, stated that JVL "is an organisation which is not just tiny but has no real connection with the Jewish community at all" and "It doesn't represent the Jewish community in a way that JLM clearly does represent the Labour wing of the Jewish community." Luke Akehust, director of We Believe in Israel and secretary of Labour First, has called for JVL to be proscribed.[36]

On the face of it I see a balanced view from JVL that clearly rejects AS. Also a quick poke around their website reveals nothing but kind words and good intentions which on the face of it seem to be backed up by their actions. This seems a stark contrast to the CAA and We Believe in Iarael with their lists of those to be denounced and calls for various individuals, points of view or groups to be classed as AS or banned / proscribed. Put simply, in JVL I see love, in the others hate. Happy to be put right, as I admit I've only had a cursory glance at the various websites.

 

[Postman Pep]

Genuinely interested in this groups stance- From wiki:
The organisation has been described as controversial[32] and the Jewish Labour Movement has called its views an "extreme fringe".[33] Jewish Leadership Council chairman Jonathan Goldstein has said that JVL is "not representative of our community".[34] Board of Deputies of British Jews President Marie van der Zyl has referred to JVL as "a tiny organisation whose odious views are representative of no-one but themselves."[35] Jon Lansman, founder of Momentum, stated that JVL "is an organisation which is not just tiny but has no real connection with the Jewish community at all" and "It doesn't represent the Jewish community in a way that JLM clearly does represent the Labour wing of the Jewish community." Luke Akehust, director of We Believe in Israel and secretary of Labour First, has called for JVL to be proscribed.[36]

On the face of it I see a balanced view from JVL that clearly rejects AS. Also a quick poke around their website reveals nothing but kind words and good intentions which on the face of it seem to be backed up by their actions. This seems a stark contrast to the CAA and We Believe in Iarael with their lists of those to be denounced and calls for various individuals, points of view or groups to be classed as AS or banned / proscribed. Put simply, in JVL I see love, in the others hate. Happy to be put right, as I admit I've only had a cursory glance at the various websites.

From the outside looking in that is how I see it. The BOD demands that when it comes to Jewish opinion the Labour Party should heed the words of JLM only and marginalise groups such as JVL in order to remove the guilty charge. Imagine the C of E or the Muslim Council of Britain dictating to a political party who represents a diversity of opinion across a faith group/ethnicity ? Challenging this narrative leads to be being accused of AS so I'll leave it for Jewish people to explain.




Examples of the above in these testimonies

'The wrong sort of Jew': How Labour pursued complaints against elderly Jewish opponents of Israel

Labour's investigations into antisemitism raise questions about the nature and definition of what the party is attempting to root out

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[mexico1970]

Maybe Rebecca Long Bailey or Ian Lavery. They would have to be a Democratic Socialist and not a Social Democrat, I don't want anyone with liberal ideals, traditional Labour always had a small C conservative approach, it is patriotic, it is strong on defence, it is strong on police, it cares first and foremost about the working class, it refutes neo-liberal economics, regulates the markets, brings vital industry and infrastructure under state control, it pursues the mantra of from each according to their ability, from each according to their needs, it attempts to create equality of opportunity not equality of outcome, it respects traditional family values, it never panders to racists or bigotry of any form. It makes sure everyone has a home, everyone has a job, if they cant work then they have a proper safety net, they look after the old properly with a real pension and proper social care. They treat mental health as seriously as they treat physical health, they never privatise the NHS in any shape or form. Immigration is controlled but asylum seekers are made welcome, we leave and stay out of the EU, we question the mission of NATO and we build a proper army, airforce and navy and get rid of useless vanity nuclear weapons. The party is internationalist not isolationalist. It is secular yet respects the rights to religion, it ends the vacuous system of hereditary and religious representation in parliament. It is federalist and unionist, it respects devolution and furthers it to the regions, it gives power back to local leaders and away from Whitehall. It gets rid of zero hours contracts, it taxes wealth properly and income appropriatelty in a progressive manner. It reduces the regressive VAT and puts an end to tax avoidance and closes tax havens. Corporations pay proper tax and sweetheart deals to corporations are made illegal. Eventually introduce UBI and shorten the working week to 30 hours, invest in the arts, they are just as much for the working class as they are for the capitalist class. Sport is made central to health and all sports clubs are funded properly and not allowed to be owned by cunts.

There is more but my tea is ready, that is a taster of the "far" left politics of Rascal. Make of it what you will.

Seriously, what's not to like?

Now if Labour would have coughed that list of aims up at the last GE they would have flown home by a country mile IMO.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Should’ve been my party but couldn’t vote because of the way they did business. Corbyn was not the answer but as long as they scratched each others backs to get their huge wages/expenses then what did people care.

No wonder the majority don’t care, or voted for the Conservatives, theyve realised that their lives are dispensable as they cost.

 

[ROCKET80]

Seriously, what's not to like?

Now if Labour would have coughed that list of aims up at the last GE they would have flown home by a country mile IMO.

I like the majority of it.

What would stop them winning an election with this is the influence of the right leaning media and the British electorate. There's no room for nuance. Recent voting shows a catchy slogan and bluster beats anything with substance.

Labour need to focus on winning.

It is a broad church from those who are socially left but economically right and the socially right who are economically left. Labour need a leader (and team around them) that can unify the party (easier said than done) by selling to them a clear path to winning an election and slowly moving the country from right of centre to the left over 3-4 terms and have proper succession planning. Evolution not revolution.

Labour only needs to look at New Zealand and Jacinda Ardern; a Blairite who appeals to the left of the party, not only that but the far left factions were appeased by bringing in the Greens as a coalition partner when not required.

The one (and generally only) thing to admire about the Tories is they know how to win, they'll say and do anything to get and retain power (both the Conservative and Republican parties are showing this more than ever right now) they know how to play the political game.

In football terms they're the the win at all costs team, master of the dark arts, they'll foul, dive and cheat their way to victory. Labour are the team that lost claiming they played the better football and then arguing between themselves about Gundogan.

Until Labour focus on what it takes to win an election, they'll forever be in opposition.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Seriously, what's not to like?

Now if Labour would have coughed that list of aims up at the last GE they would have flown home by a country mile IMO.

because no-one believes they would achieve the vast majority of that, and would just make life harder for working people and allow left wing university nutjobs to desecrate our norms, traditions and the fundamentals of human society.

and no-one with any modicum of decency or self-respect wants to get rid of a numpty like Boris to put a complete moron like RLB or Burgon in charge.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Maybe Rebecca Long Bailey or Ian Lavery. They would have to be a Democratic Socialist and not a Social Democrat, I don't want anyone with liberal ideals, traditional Labour always had a small C conservative approach, it is patriotic, it is strong on defence, it is strong on police, it cares first and foremost about the working class (should be everyone), it refutes neo-liberal economics (well it shouldn't), regulates the markets (within reason), brings vital industry and infrastructure under state control (should only be with commercially viable reason), it pursues the mantra of from each according to their ability, from each according to their needs, it attempts to create equality of opportunity not equality of outcome (the left has dismantled and thorougly rejected this notion in favour of "diversity" and "equality", and no left Labour leader is going to reject that ideology, not even Starmer does), it respects traditional family values (the left as it standsdoesn't, it fundamentally rejects the traditional family unit and values in favour of blaming successful and white people for societal failures in under-developed communities instead of owning their own failures), it never panders to racists (cough anti-semitism) or bigotry of any form (plenty of white and biological women blaming going on freely on the left these days). It makes sure everyone has a home, everyone has a job (communistic working practices don't work), if they cant work then they have a proper safety net (do they also have the obligation to take proper personal responsibility?), they look after the old properly with a real pension and proper social care (pensioners get the best deal out of anyone pre-Covid). They treat mental health as seriously as they treat physical health, they never privatise the NHS in any shape or form (private services have merit as long as the core principles and facilities of the NHS are upheld). Immigration is controlled but asylum seekers are made welcome (waits for the definition of asylum seeker to magically change to anyone who wants to come here instead of settle in the mainland Europe they've just managed to cross), we leave and stay out of the EU, we question the mission of NATO and we build a proper army, airforce and navy (20th century) and get rid of useless vanity nuclear weapons (political deterrent). The party is internationalist not isolationalist (but we leave the EU...). It is secular yet respects the rights to religion (does it respect the right not to be killed in this country by religion and tackle the communities who facilitate it?), it ends the vacuous system of hereditary and religious representation in parliament (cool). It is federalist and unionist (I like the Queen), it respects devolution and furthers it to the regions (it's either a union or devolved), it gives power back to local leaders and away from Whitehall. It gets rid of zero hours contracts (they are useful in certain respects), it taxes wealth properly (by properly you mean excessively) and income appropriatelty (appropriately: see properly) in a progressive (progressive: twinned with punitive) manner. It reduces the regressive VAT and puts an end to tax avoidance and closes tax havens (good luck). Corporations pay proper tax (bon chance) and sweetheart deals to corporations are made illegal (yeah...). Eventually introduce UBI (as if we don't have a gimme, gimme, gimme society enough as it is) and shorten the working week to 30 hours, invest in the arts, they are just as much for the working class as they are for the capitalist class (there's plenty more needs investing in first). Sport is made central to health and all sports clubs are funded properly and not allowed to be owned by cunts (subjective).

There is more but my tea is ready, that is a taster of the "far" left politics of Rascal. Make of it what you will.

made of it what I will. Ultimately, some of my points were directly at you and others at the reality that if we headed in your direction we would end up with someone in the middle ground who would reject some of your most crucial notions (equality of opportunity, family values etc.). At the end of the day, we can't even get people to respect wearing masks or other fundamentals of science and biology so more freebies for the "gimme" generation seems unpalatable.